Tonex -vs- NAM ..... the Tonex "Aliasing" Low Pass Filter is at ~ 14kHz

[Ed DeGenaro]

PS: I think capturing is largely bullshit anyway. I'm so fucking over it.

You got a point there. I mean it IS very convenient and all, but fuck me running plugging an amp into cab and not loading it down and using IRs is so much more fun than this fucking with captures or parameters.

Now if only I wouldn’t have become the IT dept. Every other time I turn Nuendo or Pro Tools on I’d never post on a forum since I’d be to busy playing an extra 4 hours a day.

 

[[Nathan]]

PS: I think capturing is largely bullshit anyway. I'm so fucking over it.

I'm not that burnt on it but also not far off my current mindset either. My simplistic takeaway is... yeah cool it works. It's less flexible to use than modelling, its less real than real but its a nice photocopy, cool.

NAM wins for me now because reamping is easy, training is easy, anyone can use NAM on a computer, best quality captures... no downsides for my uses. Other people will be different with pedals/rigs (QC, Kemper, ToneX etc). As long as the capture is good enough and the player is happy then happy days really. Tech will get better, its all obviously not 100% there yet but its all mostly close enough.

 

[Orvillain]

You got a point there. I mean it IS very convenient and all, but fuck me running plugging an amp into cab and not loading it down and using IRs is so much more fun than this fucking with captures or parameters.

Now if only I wouldn’t have become the IT dept. Every other time I turn Nuendo or Pro Tools on I’d never post on a forum since I’d be to busy playing an extra 4 hours a day.

I'm all over the shop gear-wise, but the common thing for the last year or so has just been... ehhh... can't be arsed with capturing, it never really sounds right. NAM is cool, but it just isn't a nice self contained environment.

I'm not that burnt on it but also not far off my current mindset either. My simplistic takeaway is... yeah cool it works. It's less flexible to use than modelling, its less real than real but its a nice photocopy, cool.

NAM wins for me now because reamping is easy, training is easy, anyone can use NAM on a computer, best quality captures... no downsides for my uses. Other people will be different with pedals/rigs (QC, Kemper, ToneX etc). As long as the capture is good enough and the player is happy then happy days really. Tech will get better, its all obviously not 100% there yet but its all mostly close enough.

I've been pairing down my options, which is why I sold the QC. I'm just plugging into my Mark V, some pedals in front, and a cab and a few mics.

NAM is cool, and I'm reasonably happy with the accuracy, although it also isn't 100% dead on. But I'd way prefer a Helix Native style thing with a proper plugin behind it.

Although all that being said, if Fractal released a desktop plugin version of the Axe FX III, that would kill everything else, and crom would be laughing at your NAM captures.

 

[DLC86]

And what useable information is up there?
The highest fretted note on a standard tuned 24 fret guitar the high e is 1320Hz fir the fundamental.
my gained out Fryette pre generates the 13th harmonic at almost 16k is nearly 40dB down and 41cent sharp from a equal tempered ♭5.

So while chasing that accuracy thing might be fun for some it’s somewhat pointless since all that inharmonicity up there might as well be aliasing since if the speaker wouldn’t lop that overtone that’s already 40dB down another 30 dB down one would have to eq it out.

But hey carry on

Since you brought this up again, I re-read the post cuz I originally misinterpreted it too... But this kind of reasoning still doesn't make much sense imho.

1. It's not all "inharmonical" up there, exactly at 16 kHz you also find the 16th harmonic of 1kHz, the 32rd harmonic of 500 Hz, the 64th harmonic of 250 Hz and so on... All of which are perfectly in tune with the fundamental being power of 2 multiples (aka higher octaves) of those frequencies.

2. The same can be said for any frequency range, e.g. the 13th harmonic of the low E (82.4 Hz) is at 1071.2 Hz, does that mean there's no useful information at 1 kHz when you play that note?

PS: I think the fact we consider those high frequencies less useful somehow is not due to some intrinsic property of the harmonics in that range, it's just that our ears are less good at detecting pitch up there, just like it happens at very low frequencies as well.

 

[EOengineer]

The one pattern I can see is that with my amp captures that were "head only" there is a commonality around 14kHz - all of my captures have some kind of roll off, and it isn't a nice pretty curve either:

View attachment 40652

And I will go on record as saying that a real amp does not have this kind of high-frequency drop.

Ok this is consistent with what I’m experiencing with the rolloff. I’m in the camp hearing a bit of the 14kHz dip. I also tend to use my own direct amp captures. Maybe there’s something there.

The 5kHz thing I guess I haven’t noticed.

 

[R590]

I'm all over the shop gear-wise, but the common thing for the last year or so has just been... ehhh... can't be arsed with capturing, it never really sounds right. NAM is cool, but it just isn't a nice self contained environment.


I've been pairing down my options, which is why I sold the QC. I'm just plugging into my Mark V, some pedals in front, and a cab and a few mics.

NAM is cool, and I'm reasonably happy with the accuracy, although it also isn't 100% dead on. But I'd way prefer a Helix Native style thing with a proper plugin behind it.

Although all that being said, if Fractal released a desktop plugin version of the Axe FX III, that would kill everything else, and crom would be laughing at your NAM captures.

This resonates with me. I’m back in tube amp land again after going deep on profiling with QC, ToneX, and NAM. I’ll come back around to profiling again as well as my Axe III eventually, but the profiling turned into a bit of an obsession for a minute there. I truly love it all.

This thread has been fascinating for my nerd brain, even if I only understand 10% of it. Thanks for the cool read and the excellent Conan reference!

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Since you brought this up again, I re-read the post cuz I originally misinterpreted it too... But this kind of reasoning still doesn't make much sense imho.

1. It's not all "inharmonical" up there, exactly at 16 kHz you also find the 16th harmonic of 1kHz, the 32rd harmonic of 500 Hz, the 64th harmonic of 250 Hz and so on... All of which are perfectly in tune with the fundamental being power of 2 multiples (aka higher octaves) of those frequencies.

2. The same can be said for any frequency range, e.g. the 13th harmonic of the low E (82.4 Hz) is at 1071.2 Hz, does that mean there's no useful information at 1 kHz when you play that note?

PS: I think the fact we consider those high frequencies less useful somehow is not due to some intrinsic property of the harmonics in that range, it's just that our ears are less good at detecting pitch up there, just like it happens at very low frequencies as well.

True, except the further you go up the harmonic series the more attenuated each become and as I said the difference between fundamental and 13th on full tilt gain is about 40dB (before attenuating more by way of cab or IR).
So that 64th harmonic or 8th octaves up from 250 is completely inaudible.
Plus the whole number overtones that are in tunes are obvious not an issue.

Adding another note to it, which is where the overtones really don’t play nice.
You play a A 5th fret and E 7th fret and in addition to their harmonics you also get a C# that’s 14 cent flat from equal temperament and an in tune A an octave below, and their harmonics which gets you a G.

Now do this with something like a root and 3rd (a and c# g b string’s second fret)
You get an 11c sharp A an octave up, and a 37c flat A# two octaves below as well as a 25c sharp E in the same octave and a 46c sharp F two octaves up and so on.
This is where inharmonicity comes in.
And yes I know if we wanna be pedantic it’s intermodulation distortion and not inharmonicity.

Next up the actual inharmonicity of the string and it being amplified.
As in the initial attack of a guitar string is out of tune until the resonance is audible.

Point there are a whole lotta things that are an “issue” before any filtering at 14k.

 

[Orvillain]

Point there are a whole lotta things that are an “issue” before any filtering at 14k.

This is your view. It isn't everyone's. We noticed the ToneX filtering before we started measuring it. That means it is perceptible, and could thus definitely be an issue. It just depends on the person. I'm fine if you don't give a shit about this. But don't expect the rest of us to conform to your view.

ToneX JCM800 with the cab disabled:

Helix Native 2203 with no cab:

At a threshold of -88dB, Helix Native does a massively better job with the anti-aliasing filters than ToneX does.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

This is your view. It isn't everyone's. We noticed the ToneX filtering before we started measuring it. That means it is perceptible, and could thus definitely be an issue. It just depends on the person. I'm fine if you don't give a shit about this. But don't expect the rest of us to conform to your view.

ToneX JCM800 with the cab disabled:
View attachment 40661

Helix Native 2203 with no cab:
View attachment 40662

At a threshold of -88dB, Helix Native does a massively better job with the anti-aliasing filters than ToneX does.

Actually I most definitely don’t care for anyone to conform to my views, and yes I’ll blather my rather strong opinion just as much as you as the next guy. Kinda how discussion boards function.

And it’s not that I don’t give a shit, but for me whatever issue tonex has compared to nam has to go with whatever is happening with their input gain which is what I believe accounts for the midrange thing.

Now do I care enough that I’d use nam over it? No
But then I also prefer the Kemper when it comes to combined captures and tonex for di captures.

 

[Orvillain]

Actually I most definitely don’t care for anyone to conform to my views, and yes I’ll blather my rather strong opinion just as much as you as the next guy. Kinda how discussion boards function.

And it’s not that I don’t give a shit, but for me whatever issue tonex has compared to nam has to go with whatever is happening with their input gain which is what I believe accounts for the midrange thing.

Now do I care enough that I’d use nam over it? No
But then I also prefer the Kemper when it comes to combined captures and tonex for di captures.

If I could, I'd collect every single Kemper across the planet, and throw them into the universes biggest wood chipper. I think the thing sounds like a bag of shit. Worse than a Pod 2.0.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

If I could, I'd collect every single Kemper across the planet, and throw them into the universes biggest wood chipper. I think the thing sounds like a bag of shit. Worse than a Pod 2.0.

I think you’ve been pretty vocal about your take on that. And you know what I’m good with it, just as I’m good with your take on the THD Hot Plate being the biggest piece of shit gear you ever had.
But I’d say you wouldn’t expect me to confirm to your idea there.

Funnily enough the best part after leaving the MI manufacturing gig I was able to actually voice my opinion as negatively as I wanted. Instead of just ignoring shit I didn’t care for.
Yet I still don’t.

This place has a tendency to go run for the pitchforks pretty damn fast when the end user thinks there’s the least little thing a manufacturer exaggerates about.
And guess what most all do lie.
Especially the ones you’d think they don’t.

 

[Orvillain]

I think you’ve been pretty vocal about your take on that. And you know what I’m good with it, just as I’m good with your take on the THD Hot Plate being the biggest piece of shit gear you ever had.

THD was the 2nd

Funnily enough the best part after leaving the MI manufacturing gig I was able to actually voice my opinion as negatively as I wanted. Instead of just ignoring shit I didn’t care for.

I don't really have that problem tbh.

This place has a tendency to go run for the pitchforks pretty damn fast when the end user thinks there’s the least little thing a manufacturer exaggerates about.

I wouldn't really call it pitchforks. That's some dramaticism there.

And guess what most all do lie.

I don't know what that means.

Especially the ones you’d think they don’t.

I also don't know what that means.

 

[DLC86]

True, except the further you go up the harmonic series the more attenuated each become and as I said the difference between fundamental and 13th on full tilt gain is about 40dB (before attenuating more by way of cab or IR).
So that 64th harmonic or 8th octaves up from 250 is completely inaudible.

That depends on the amount of gain and the filtering of the particular amp/pedal you're using. -40 dB might be true for your amp but won't be true for all amps.

Adding another note to it, which is where the overtones really don’t play nice.
You play a A 5th fret and E 7th fret and in addition to their harmonics you also get a C# that’s 14 cent flat from equal temperament and an in tune A an octave below, and their harmonics which gets you a G.

Now do this with something like a root and 3rd (a and c# g b string’s second fret)
You get an 11c sharp A an octave up, and a 37c flat A# two octaves below as well as a 25c sharp E in the same octave and a 46c sharp F two octaves up and so on.
This is where inharmonicity comes in.
And yes I know if we wanna be pedantic it’s intermodulation distortion and not inharmonicity.

Next up the actual inharmonicity of the string and it being amplified.
As in the initial attack of a guitar string is out of tune until the resonance is audible.

Point there are a whole lotta things that are an “issue” before any filtering at 14k.

Again, all that happens on lower frequency bands too when you play lower notes... plus, intermodulation creates overtones even below the fundamentals, not only above.

Anyway, I feel like we're shifting away from the main subject here.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

That depends on the amount of gain and the filtering of the particular amp/pedal you're using. -40 dB might be true for your amp but won't be true for all amps.


Again, all that happens on lower frequency bands too when you play lower notes... plus, intermodulation creates overtones even below the fundamentals, not only above.

Why are you telling me stuff I pointed out in my posts?
I clearly said intermodulation distortion creates undertones as well when I pointed out that root and third create a super outta tune b9 two octaves below, an outta tune 5th in the same octave.

And obvious it was in reference to the amp I used, and as I said overtones get more plentiful the more any part of the system distorts.

 

[Orvillain]

Anyway, I feel like we're shifting away from the main subject here.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

THD was the 2nd


I don't really have that problem tbh.


I wouldn't really call it pitchforks. That's some dramaticism there.


I don't know what that means.


I also don't know what that means.

Seriously? You in MI and don’t know folks lie? How about “we never haven given away gear, every one pays”.
Or “it’s only the second one in the history of the company to have this fault, we strive for under 2% failure rate”.

As for over dramatisation…tell me there isn’t a pile on every given chance.

 

[Orvillain]

Seriously? You in MI and don’t know folks lie? How about “we never haven given away gear, every one pays”.
Or “it’s only the second one in the history of the company to have this fault, we strive for under 2% failure rate”.

I just said I don't know what it means. I kinda still don't, you're not being very clear and I'm not even sure why you brought it up in the context of this thread. Quite the puzzler.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I just said I don't know what it means. I kinda still don't, you're not being very clear and I'm not even sure why you brought it up in the context of this thread. Quite the puzzler.

I brought it up because folks wanting to call IK out on their ad copy. In this thread.

 

[Orvillain]

I brought it up because folks wanting to call IK out on their ad copy. In this thread.

That was not very clear tbh.

 

[DLC86]

Why are you telling me stuff I pointed out in my posts?
I clearly said intermodulation distortion creates undertones as well when I pointed out that root and third create a super outta tune b9 two octaves below, an outta tune 5th in the same octave.

And obvious it was in reference to the amp I used, and as I said overtones get more plentiful the more any part of the system distorts.

Ok, sorry but I don't get the point then... we were talking about stuff that makes a guitar signal "less useful" on higher frequencies and you mentioned a few things that can happen pretty much anywhere in the spectrum...

And btw, that "inharmonicity" is a big part of what makes an electric guitar sound cool. Who doesn't like that stuff can go play a harp or glockenspiel