Thinking out loud about a computer based live setup...

[Sascha Franck]

So, I would like to gather some opinions and informations, do a bit of brainstorming and maybe collect some ideas for future reference.

The reason I am now thinking about such a setup again (I've been there already and even used a laptop based kinda hybrid rig for two musical productions way back already) is that, as I got my Tonex One pedals, I fooled around a lot more with guitar amp (and related) plugins than usually. I'm also trying to sort out some of that large pile of plugin mess, so I tested quite some on guitars along the way.

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Possibly the most important observation: Regarding core guitar tones, what I have available within my DAW is *much* more than sufficient for absolutely all use cases I could ever imagine. There's absolutely no need to wait for whatever company to release a new line of modeling hardware just because of the core tones. The combination of things such as NAM, Tonex, HX Native, Amplitube and what have you allows me to dial in the most fantastic tones already.
The best thing being that, as I own both Helix and Tonex hardware, I have alread put the most of these core sounds through some live paces, and they stood up so well that there's absolutely nothing missing for me.

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Next: Unlike with hardware, I don't have to wait for any hardware company to perhaps come up with some features or tonal options I'd like to have in my daily arsenal.
It's all there already, really. Here's a few examples:

- If you have read some of my posts regarding amp modeling hardware, you will know how much I would love something like a global block functionality implemented. But so far, nobody but Boss and FAS is offering this - and both have some serious shortcomings. With a computer based setup, this could be realised, even sort of easily (both Mainstage and Gig Performer, which would be the two main contenders as live hosts for me, allow for such a setup).

- In general, I would love to have my live rig to work every bit as a loop/MIDI switcher controlled hybrid rig. These have always delivered the best happy medium between quick access/tweakability while still offering more or less complexed patch switching without tap dancing. No current hardware modeler allows me to set up anything like that on the same level even as even my lowlier hybrid setups. A computer based setup would however deliver that, pretty much ins spades even.

- I just happen to like quite some FX that simply aren't there in the hardware modeling world, unless I'd combine several units, spend a lot of money and have a lot of configuration tinkering to do.
Nifty filters (such as the most excellent free Two Filters plugin), incredible delays (such as UVI's Relayer), fantastic reverbs (such as NI's Raum or any IR-based reverb), incredible phasers, granular pitch madness, wicked step filters (such as to be found in U-He's most incredible Uhbik series), it's all there already. And I can add anything at any time.

- Even guitar-to-MIDI would be possible without any dedicated hardware. I don't exactly need that, but you never know...

- If I wanted to come up with some advanced live looping, that'd be zero issues, even Ableton Live Lite allows for more than each and every hardware based solution out there already.

There'd possibly be way more examples, but I'll leave it at that for now.

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Another important observation: Apart from Jam Origin's MIDI guitar (which I have no real need for) and a live host (easily sorted by purchasing Mainstage for a mere €35), I own all of that stuff (and then some, in fact quite some...) already.

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That should be it for the opening post, will get into my hardware considerations next...

 

[laxu]

How do you plan to deal with latency? Buy a RME audio interface?

What about on-the-fly control? Do you need any? It can be a pain in the ass to map plugin params to work with whatever MIDI controller.

It sounds like you would have to do a lot of programming and management to make it work like you prefer vs working around what a typical modeler allows you to do.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Always curious but never enough to try. Adding another "shift" of technology support does not sound like a good guitar playing time to me. But if you can boil it down how you want to and get away with an easier to move and manage footprint; go for it.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Of course it’s doable. Seems like more hassle than it would be worth for performance.

 

[Sascha Franck]

How do you plan to deal with latency? Buy a RME audio interface?

Right now I'm using a Motu M2. RTL at 44.1 and 32 samples (super stable setting with plenty of CPU headroom in all typical scenarios) is at 3.5ms, sometimes a little above, should a plugin add a little (Amplitube and Tonex add 7 samples each, so that's almost nothing).
I would still consider a Babyface, but the Motu is absolutely fine already, 3.5ms are absolutely in line with hardware modelers.

What about on-the-fly control? Do you need any?

Would be absolutely crucial for me, but I'd add a rotary encoder controller in any case. When using Mainstage, it's as well possible to use an iPad as a remote control (and I plan to purchase an iPad more or less soon anyway).

It can be a pain in the ass to map plugin params to work with whatever MIDI controller.

This is actually quite trivial in both Mainstage and Gig Performer. In fact, they're pretty much made for that kinda thing.
Yes, it's still a lot of homework, but you really only do that once (and only adjust some things when using different plugins).

It sounds like you would have to do a lot of programming and management to make it work like you prefer vs working around what a typical modeler allows you to do.

Not really, especially given that I'm *very* familiar in DAW environments. If I had all the required hardware available, it'd take me less than a day to slap a very capable live setup together.

I don't want to get into these details right now (the weekly football/soccer session is ahead), but there's some much more relevant issues I would have to tinker with.
Such as...

and manage footprint

That's an absolutely crucial thing and I hate it already. In fact, it's the thing that has kept me away from it (and ended my first foray as well), the most important aspects being:

- I just *love* a single pedalboard to do everything. Gigging life doesn't get any easier.

- Where to place that damn laptop (or maybe even a Mac Mini, will have to look at how well they could be completely remote controlled by an iPad)? These things need some damn great protection, so I can't see any other option but to use a rack of some sorts, to house and protect laptop, interface and remote rotary controller. As said, I hate that aspect of things by far the most.
I know of some folks who have slapped and carefully protected a Mac Mini in some kinda elaborated pedal boards, but that defenitely doesn't look like a decent solution to me.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Seems like more hassle than it would be worth for performance.

It's not exactly a hassle in terms of dealing with it (minus the "where to put the damn laptop" issue, which is in fact super concerning for me). Once done, editing will be a friggin dream and 100 times more enjoyable than editing that GT-1000 turd.

 

[metropolis_4]

I did it for a while and generally liked it.

The pros for me were:

• Lots of flexibility/programability
• Ability to choose my favorite plugins for each sound
• Carry the whole rig in a courier’s bag
• Endless possibilities with MIDI

Cons:

• I spent more time programming than playing when I was preparing for shows. It’s a lot of work
• Some plugins are CPU intensive and you’ll quickly run out of memory in MainStage if you try to build out a show order
• It’s a challenge to manage state in a way you can easily tell what is active and what’s not. Keeping MIDI controllers in sync so you have visible feedback of what sound you’re on can be tricky.
• Ultimately for me the sound just wasn’t as good as the hardware modeler options. I felt more disconnected from the sounds, the feel was weird.

Basically, the problem that led me to stop going that route was how much work it was. It takes so much time to program the sounds, then program MIDI.

If you’re going to do it my advice is get a really good interface and think really carefully about which MIDI controller you choose

 

[banned]

What're you using for live monitoring? Just curious?

 

[Sascha Franck]

I spent more time programming than playing when I was preparing for shows. It’s a lot of work

Not an issue worrying me as I'm really absolutely familiar with all things DAW.

Some plugins are CPU intensive and you’ll quickly run out of memory in MainStage if you try to build out a show order

Given that I can run more than 3 fully maxed instances of HX Native on one single core of my MBA, I don't see this to become an issue anymore.

It’s a challenge to manage state in a way you can easily tell what is active and what’s not. Keeping MIDI controllers in sync so you have visible feedback of what sound you’re on can be tricky.

Yes, that's one of the most tricky parts. Too bad there's no MIDI floor controllers following, say, the Mackie HUI protocol yet.

Ultimately for me the sound just wasn’t as good as the hardware modeler options.

That's absolutely fine for me already. The sound I'm getting out of the Tonex pedal vs. the plugin running through my interface is completely indistiguishable to my ears.

If you’re going to do it my advice is get a really good interface and think really carefully about which MIDI controller you choose

The interface won't be a problem at all anymore. I'd likely get a Babyface at one point in time, though. The MIDI controller will however be more of an issue. One of the reasons I started this thread, because I may need recommendations one day.

Having said all that: I'm not in a hurry at all. My current live setup is just absolutely great. But all the talk about the Helix Stadium has got me thinking, as that amount of money would buy me a refurbished small MBA, an interface and a floor controller already. And apart from the lack of a great all-in-one package, it'd offer much more options.

 

[ian_dissonance]

It's not exactly a hassle in terms of dealing with it (minus the "where to put the damn laptop" issue, which is in fact super concerning for me). Once done, editing will be a friggin dream and 100 times more enjoyable than editing that GT-1000 turd.

Hardware for a manual adjustment, hardware for foot switching, probably at least one hub since it sounds like you’re on a Mac (do the MBA still do the thing where they get hot and throttle the CPU to half speed for like 15 minutes?), stands for all that shit, cables for all the shit, laptop PSU, disconnecting/transporting/reconnecting all of it…. I just find it hard to believe that’s somehow less complicated than using the GT1K to change something occasionally. If I was going this route I’d want a dedicated computer and some sort of pedalboard or rack to leave it all connected and safe for transport. If unlimited flexibility is the goal it’s a way to go, I just can’t imagine needing that “on the fly” at a gig.

 

[Sascha Franck]

What're you using for live monitoring? Just curious?

FR wedges or IEMs. Perfectly happy with it since years already.

 

[laxu]

Where to place that damn laptop (or maybe even a Mac Mini, will have to look at how well they could be completely remote controlled by an iPad)? These things need some damn great protection, so I can't see any other option but to use a rack of some sorts, to house and protect laptop, interface and remote rotary controller. As said, I hate that aspect of things by far the most.
I know of some folks who have slapped and carefully protected a Mac Mini in some kinda elaborated pedal boards, but that defenitely doesn't look like a decent solution to me.

That sounds like overkill. Just get a Macbook and a heavy duty case. An iPad is going to be a helluva lot worse user experience and doesn't work well to control a Mac.

Where to put it? I'd see if you can find some sort of collapsible stand that could be used.

It's not exactly rock n' roll, but the IKEA RÅSKOG cart with bamboo plates is about the perfect size and height for putting a pedalboard on it. You could even cram a poweramp on the second tier. But maybe defeats the whole idea of making things nice and compact...

 

[Sascha Franck]

(do the MBA still do the thing where they get hot and throttle the CPU to half speed for like 15 minutes?)

No. These days, they are the most efficient machines ever. Even with the lid closed mine gets lukewarm at best and there's *zero* moving parts inside.

 

[metropolis_4]

Not an issue worrying me as I'm really absolutely familiar with all things DAW.



Given that I can run more than 3 fully maxed instances of HX Native on one single core of my MBA, I don't see this to become an issue anymore.

I was also “really absolutely familiar with all things DAW” when I was doing this. I’m not saying it’s difficult in a “how do I do this?” way, I’m saying it’s tedious and time consuming.

It’s not difficult, it just takes a lot of time.

With the CPU, what I’m saying is you’ll have to be intentional about planning out how your organize your workflow or you will eventually run out of memory. If you’re building a setlist for 50 songs in MainStage and try to make each one a separate song in MainStage and put an instance of HX Native in each one along with other plugins like reverbs/delays you’re going to run out of memory

 

[Sascha Franck]

Where to put it? I'd see if you can find some sort of collapsible stand that could be used.

Wouldn't want that. No raised laptops for me anymore. One sailing down on stage has been enough of that experience.
I would want a rack, put it on the floor, grab the laptop for booting and starting the initial setup, then put it back into a rack caddy. The rest would be done via remote control (knobbox and iPad).

 

[sashimi]

I just don’t see why you’d want to go through all of the extra trouble of midi programming and dealing with multiple potential points of failure with an interface and a laptop and a controller, when you could just use an hx stomp or LT or whatever on the floor. Is it worth it?

 

[Sascha Franck]

I’m not saying it’s difficult in a “how do I do this?” way, I’m saying it’s tedious and time consuming.

As said, if I had all the hardware, I'd be done in less than a day.

 

[JiveTurkey]

This is one of those things where I feel like you can discuss all the pros and cons but will NEVER know until you just do it. And realize it's either what you've been missing the whole time OR it's h#ll on earth and you want to immediately go back to an "old fashioned" rig.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Is it worth it?

Soundwise? For bread and butter = no. For anything else = defenitely yes.
And handling wise? Once it's done = every single bit yes. Minus the separated devices (floor control and computer/interface storage).

 

[metropolis_4]

As said, if I had all the hardware, I'd be done in less than a day.

You sound like you’ve already made up your mind and you’re supremely confident you’ve already got all the answers, so I’m not sure why you’re bothering to ask