The Modeling Amplification Thread

I just came back home from a jam session. My friend's band was playing and they asked me if I wanted to stop by and sit in for a few songs. They told me to just bring the guitar and they'd have a spare rig set up for me.

I get there and the "spare rig" was a Katana 212. And I have to say: it sounded damn good.

I plugged in, switched to the Lead channel, quickly dialed in the gain and EQ, then added a touch of delay and boost just with the front panel knobs. It took me a whole 10 seconds to dial in a tone I was completely happy with for that situation.

IMHO, that's how digital should always work. Technology is supposed to make life easy.

I'm not saying the Katana is the best modeler out there, but it's definitely good and IMHO Boss has the right approach with that amp: a digital rig that delivers as much instant satisfaction as a regular rig. Price point is right too.
I like my Artist MkII and Gen3. I also like the Boss Nextone, which is similarly easy to dial in. So was the THR100HD, but Yamaha hamstrung that one by providing no possibility of sound storage. What a stupid unforced error that was.
 
I forget if we’ve talked about this, but I’m very interested in the matrix power amps to level my situation up a bit. Would you mind elaborating a bit on which one you have, what cab you’re using it with, and what kinds of sounds you’re using?

Generally the higher gain stuff I find can be fairly tolerable. It’s when I try to step down into non master volume amps (Plexi, Deluxe Reverb) where things feel very dry/flat and obviously not tube. Part of that is IMO the Helix but I think I need more than 200 watts to get that punch happening.

I have a GT1000fx. Class AB, Mosfet, stereo. Sadly, Matrix has (currently) stopped production.

I've had lots of cabs and held on to two. One is a Port City oversized 1x12, with a 150W Celestion G12H RedBack. Loud with a vintage vibe. The other is a Mesa vertical open-back 2x12 with an EV-12L and C90 Black Shadow (mono/stereo).

The IRs I use, match those cabs.

I play everything from clean to heavy, but not metal.
 
If you aren't satisfied with the power amp simulation in your modeler, I've got to ask why you even bother with a modeler. Get a tube amp you like and be done with it.

I don't disagree, but life is made of compromises and the life of a guitarist is no different.

Given the current market, across every price range, it is hard to beat a modeler based rig in terms of features and price.

I personally still prefer a traditional rig for the music I'm playing with my current band, but I'd jump back to full digital/hybrid in an heartbeat if needed.
 
I've tested a few.
Like genome the best so far.
Also use and tested biasX

The main problem is that all presets sound terrible but after spending a few minutes most can be made sound great.

In the end for me it's the sound i want to use she there makes me write/play.

That being said
I'm using mostly tube (preamps) they just sound better for what i like.

For poweramps i sometimes use the genome Poweramp. Sounds a lot better than the pre amp straight into the cabs. But i like my valvestate 8008 more.

I think it's a useless battle.
Both can create sounds that are 100% usable and inspire.

What i do think is funny is that since the 90s "it's now better than a tube amp" in reality both are great solutions. Maybe they should just not try to emulate but just create nice digital amps that sound awesome ;)

Wanted to get the new paradise but because you can't bypass the amps and just use the cabs was the deal breaker. It sounded great in the demos (as usual with demos )

Maybe its also me. But somehow i never got a nice reverb from them. The special ones are awesome. But i have a lexicon mx300 and Alex and they both are immersive and if needed transparant. All the reverbs in the plugins somehow sound weird.

I mean in the guitar suites.
 
The original was on the OG FAS forum, which is long gone. I found a later version here:
Speaker Evaluation Procedure.

I'm actually not sure whether I agree on that process. I did sort of similar things when looking for a wedge, started playing music through them (because that was mostly how the first ones were set up for anyway). In the end the ones I liked best when playing music through them weren't the ones I liked best for guitar monitoring purposes. Guess it might have to do a lot with how speakers do on the low end side of things, which is almost irrelevant for my guitar monitoring purposes.
 
And fwiw:

If you aren't satisfied with the power amp simulation in your modeler, I've got to ask why you even bother with a modeler. Get a tube amp you like and be done with it.

- Programmable preamp (and whatever) stuff.
- Programmable dirt stuff.
- Programmable FX.
- Programmable levels.
- Option to use it standalone (even in case it's not your first call), in case the situation may ask for such a solution.
- Home usage.
 
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I like how both my Fryette PS-100 and BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury Edition sound as poweramps for modelers. The BluGuitar Amp 1 Iridium is far more "opinionated" so it doesn't work as well.

For weight and size the BluGuitar is really hard to beat...on top of being a really good amp in its own right.
 
In the end the ones I liked best when playing music through them weren't the ones I liked best for guitar monitoring purposes.
My procedure has nothing to do with "liked best when playing music through them." Read it again, and give it some more thought.
Guess it might have to do a lot with how speakers do on the low end side of things,
It has a lot more to do with not following the procedure I laid out. Note that pink noise is at least as important a component in the test as recorded music. Also note that, having identified the most accurate, neutral monitor available to you, you may well discover that you don't like the sound of the presets you've built. The purpose of the monitor is to reveal, for better or worse.
 
Have you evaluated the EV PXM-12MP? I'm pretty happy with them.
I’ve had a pair for a while now and they’re the best option for FRFR I’ve tried (including the CLR). Light, compact, and good features. I mostly use them for dialing in tones at home at gig volume and they work great for this. Live, I have gotten spoiled by IEMs, so these wedges are a compromise for when that’s not possible.
 
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I run the Helix Stadium into 3 outputs depending what I am doing.

1/4” goes into my Orange Pedal Baby power amp, then into my Peavey 12” cab. Sounds amazing in the room.

XLR goes into my audio interface for recording or direct to my studio monitors.

Headphone out to a pair of Beyerdynamic 770s.
 
Here's something I wrote up at TOP many years ago. I could probably go through and update if helpful.

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One common question for people interested in getting into digital modelers is, what do I need to get along with them? Most high end modelers are standalone devices that don’t require external amps and effects, but they all will require some kind of playback system to hear yourself. Here’s a quick guide to monitoring your device along with some options.

Methods of Monitoring Your Sound

Guitar amp effects loop

If you already have a guitar amp that has an effects loop, you should be able to plug into the “return” of the loop. The benefit of this will be simplicity; you won’t have to use cab modeling on the device so it will be easier to make patches. If your modeler has the ability to turn off power amp modeling, this may be something to experiment with as a tube amp power section will change the tone. The downside is you are limited to the sound of the cab, especially if you have an open back combo and want a tight metal tone for instance.

Power amp and speaker cabinet
Another way to amplify your modeler that is still fairly easy to program is to use a standalone power amp with a speaker cabinet. This can save some weight and reduce noise issues. For power amps, there are small standalone devices like the EHX Magnum 44 ($150) up to the Seymour Duncan Powerstage ($500), as well as larger rack units like the Rocktron Mainline ($450) up to expensive stereo tube amps. For speaker cabinets, many 1x12 options start between $300-400 and go up from there.

I'll expand more on power amp types below.

Studio monitors
For home only use, studio monitors are a great choice. The big benefit is high quality sound at lower volumes and the ability to monitor in stereo. With monitors, you will need to use cabinet modeling which will typically require you to learn about and experiment with impulse responses, different cabinet and speaker types, and different microphones and mic placement. Cheaper studio monitors can be unnatural sounding but there are better options now than ever before, especially if you have the space for larger monitors. On the low end, JBL LSR305 are a good choice ($250 per pair), Yamaha HS8 are popular in the midrange ($800 per pair), and on the high end many people like Adam A7X ($1500 per pair).

Powered stage monitors (aka “FRFR”)
For gigging musicians or those who need to rehearse with a band at higher volumes, powered stage monitors or “FRFR” (full range flat response) are a good choice. These are higher powered and more rugged than studio monitors but more portable than large PA speakers and have an integrated power amp. Note that you will still need to use cabinet modeling in the device as the monitor will be very bright otherwise. Popular models include the Alto TS312 ($300), Yamaha DBR12 ($500), and QSC K12 ($800). There are also options more tailored to guitar modelers such as the Line 6 Powercab ($600), Friedman ASC12 ($1000), and Atomic CLR ($1000).

P.A. system
Another option if your band or club already has a PA system is to simply plug in to that. You will want to be sure to be able to check your levels and ideally have a global EQ that you can tweak to suit the environment. Remember that ears will hear different frequencies at different volumes, so make your adjustments at stage volume to best fit in with the band.

Headphones
One of the best features of modern modelers is the ability to produce great sound through headphones for late night practice. With impulse response cabinet sims and a little ambient reverb, you can get a fairly natural tone through headphones. The two main types of headphones people will use are closed and open back; closed will have less noise leaking in and out but can feel closed off, while open may leak some noise but can feel more natural. Some popular headphones are the Beyerdynamic DT880 ($250), Audio Technica ATH-M50X ($150), or Sennheiser HD6xx ($220).

Why Doesn't My Modeler Sound Like an Amp in the Room?

A very common complaint for people first getting into digital modeling is that it "doesn't sound like a real amp in the room". Most often, these people are plugging directly from the device into a full range speaker (monitors, PA system, headphones). There are a number of reasons amp modelers won't sound like an amp in the room (Amp In The Turd):

1. Guitar speakers are not full range flat response. Most guitar speakers are 12" in diameter which works well for producing low end and midrange but not high end frequencies. If you look at a high fidelity speaker, it will typically have a separate small driver (tweeter or horn) that produces those high frequencies. The guitar speaker rolls those off, which is a big reason why a distorted guitar sounds punchy and warm compared to plugging into a PA speaker which will sound bright and harsh.

Here's an example of the different frequency of a guitar speaker vs monitor:

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2. Room reflections and diffusion add space and depth to the sound. When you play an amp in the room, you typically don't sit with your ear 2" off the speaker, but several feet away. This means you hear not only the sound of the amp, but the reflected sound bouncing around the room. In rooms with carpet and furniture, the high frequencies will be absorbed making the sound even warmer.

3. Cabinet simulations include microphone simulations which also filter the sound. The most common guitar mic is a Shure SM57 which emphasizes the upper midrange frequencies. This rolls off the high and low end, focusing the sound nicely when the guitar is playing with a full band, but can sound thin or harsh by itself. More on this below.

How to Get a More "Natural" Sound with FRFR

If you are using a modeler with studio monitors, headphones, or FRFR, there are a few ways you can counteract a bright or harsh tone:

1. Use high and low cuts after your cabinet block. Typically an engineer will cut high and low frequencies when mixing electric guitar either live or in the studio. Most modelers have high and low cuts built into the cabinet section of the modeler. A good starting point is about 80 Hz for the low end and 8.0 kHz at the high end. This will take out some of the deep rumbling bass and some of the fizzy high end. You can cut even more than this, especially with bring cabinets, so experiment.

2. Try different microphone options. Again, the typical guitar mic is a dynamic mic like an SM57 which can emphasize the upper midrange. If this is too bright and cutting, try adding a second mic or changing the mic to a different type. Condenser microphones (like an AKG C414 or Neumann U87) tend to be a little flatter response and ribbon mics (like the Royer R121 or Beyer M160) tend to emphasize low end and reduce high end. Many modelers have mic options in the cab block, otherwise you can try using impulse responses that use different mics or mixes of mics to have a more balanced tone.

3. Add a little reverb or delay. Most cab sims are going to capture the sound of a microphone right up against the speaker, which sounds unnatural by itself. Try adding a little room reverb after the cabinet block which could bring back some of the natural decay of an amp in the room. Another option is to add a short delay to the guitar (preferably a warm analog or tape delay) which will add a bit of depth without being muddy. This is a very common trick not only for guitars but vocals!

The Fletcher Munson Phenomenon (How to Not Get Lost in the Mix)

If you dial in a killer amp sound at home on your studio monitors then take it to a rehearsal, you may find you get lost in the mix or that it's way too bright. That's because humans don't hear all frequencies equally like a computer; we can hear certain midrange details at all volumes different than high and low frequencies. This helps us to hear predators walking through the forest or hear a baby crying from eight rooms away (ugh), but it can make it difficult to mix our tone properly at concert levels.

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The best practice is to start your mixes at home but to fine tune them at concert levels either at rehearsal or if necessary during sound check. Try to use your modeler's global EQ to roll off the high and low end which can apply to all presets. Or start out using more midrange than you would expect, especially if you listen at low volumes normally. Either way, be prepared to make tweaks.
 
And here's the part 2:

Power Amp Differences
(thanks to Guitardave)

When using a power amp and cabinet to monitor your modeler, note that all power amps are not equal. Sound quality is impacted by the type of amplification (tube vs solid state), the power level of the amplifier, and the quality of the components.

Solid state rack mount power amps: these are similar to what you would find in a traditional PA system. They are usually high watt solid state amps that seek to create a flat and undistorted signal. Because these amps are fairly flat, you'll want to make sure your modeler will also model the power amp section of the amp (usually on by default). Examples of these amps would be rack units from Crown, QSC, Behringturd, and other units.

Solid state pedal based power amps: A newer type of amp that has become popular is the small power amps that either fit in a pedal enclosure or a similar sized unit. These are very small and light weight compared with traditional amps. These usually use a form of amp technology called "Class D" which results in significantly smaller, lighter, more efficient, and less heat-producing amps. Examples include the EHX Magnum 44 and Seymour Duncan Power Stage.

Tube based power amps: While these were incredibly popular in the 80's and 90's rack days, they are less common today. They tend to be more expensive, heavier, and require more space than solid state amps. Still, they will bring some of the tube coloration and dynamics to your tone which can help bridge the gap with digital modeling. However at lower volumes you may not notice any benefit as the tubes have more sonic impact when they are being pushed. Again, you may want to try disabling power amp modeling in your device if you use tube amplifiers to see if you prefer the tone. Examples include Mesa Boogie 2: series and now-discontinued Marshall and VHT power amps.

Note that with any kind of power amp, you will likely get what you pay for. Cheaper amps will tend to be lower power and/or higher distortion. This means lower output volume and likely poorer sound. Distortion can be good for guitar, but you want your modeler to control that, not the lack of power in your amplifier (especially for cheap solid state amps...remember Crate?).

Speaker Placement
(thanks to Lele)

There are additional considerations when using FRFR speakers, either studio monitors or floor monitors, regarding speaker placement. The two biggest issues are directivity and boundary effects.

Directivity refers to how we hear frequencies, especially high frequencies, off vs on axis. When you are directly facing a speaker, you will hear more or less all the frequencies it creates somewhat equally. However, when you move off axis (laterally away from the speaker), the high frequencies will start to decrease. This is why you often hear about off axis speaker miking for example. The lower frequencies are typically not affected as they are longer wavelength.

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For standard guitar speakers this isn't usually a huge issue, and it's often one reason people may like the "in the room" sound. A Vintage 30 will generate a lot of annoying upper mid frequencies, but if you stand up and/or have the cab behind you, you won't hear nearly as much of that noise and will be left with more of the lows and midrange.

With FRFR speakers reproducing a miked speaker, you're going to have a much more dramatic directional effect. So you will want to be sure to consider the placement and direction of the speaker to ensure you're going to hear enough of the high end. And you'll also want to ensure that you don't for instance dial in all your tones sitting at a desk with speaker monitors, then go to rehearsal and plug into a speaker sitting on the floor and wonder why you can't hear yourself! If possible, angle the speaker or place it on a stand so the tweeter or horn can "see" your face, which will direct the high frequencies where you want to hear them.

Boundary effects refer to how the sound changes as the speaker is placed near a reflective surface such as a wall, floor, or corner. Recall that sound is created as a wave in the air (this was the coolest part of high school physics for me). And waves can interact with each other including amplifying and even canceling out frequencies (that's how noise canceling headphones work).

While directivity primarily impacted the high frequencies, boundary effects will typically impact the low frequencies. What happens is a sound wave will emit from the speaker and go everywhere (not just in a straight line). Some of that sound will bounce off a surface and head right back to the listener. And depending on the distance (you can actually figure this out with a tape measure and a calculator), it may make some frequencies sound very loud and others disappear completely!

speaker-boundary-interference-response.jpg



The best way to deal with this is to not put a speaker on the floor, next to a wall, or in a corner. This is really important with studio monitors, especially lager ones. But if that's not an option and you aren't getting paid to mix albums, a lot of times you will have a low frequency roll off switch on the back of the speaker which will help avoid excessive boomy bass.

For floor monitors, you may not have this option. If you regularly practice or gig with these, it may be helpful to use separate outputs on your modeler if possible. One would go to front of house and the other would be for your monitors, but running through an EQ. That way you can roll off the low end as necessary if it's getting too boomy (or causing feedback), or you can roll off or boost the highs if you're experiencing directivity issues.

Again, you want to consider the sound as you're dialing in your patches. So if possible dial in your sounds not just at volume (Fletcher-Munson), but walk around the space and listen to it in a variety of places. If it's excessively bassy or bright or disappears, adjust accordingly. It won't be perfect everywhere, but if you can get the mids to cut through in a number of spots in the room, you'll stand a good chance at actually cutting through the mix!
 
As far as what I'm using now, 80% of the time I play through headphones because I can hear more detail at lower volumes and it doesn't bother anyone. I will use studio monitors about 15% of the time, and the rest either playing through a Fender FR-12 or rarely through an Orange 1x12 cab powered by a Blackstar Amped 1.

If I were going to play with a band at higher volumes (like with a live drummer), I'd treat the modeler much more like an amp head running into either a solid state amp and proper guitar cab or running into a powerful FRFR combo. What I mean is the speaker and cabinet have their own sound and you need to work with that as part of the overall guitar sound instead of trying to make your direct sound louder. That means rolling off the high end pretty aggressively and potentially the lows as well (especially with an FRFR). You want the midrange coming through loud and clear just like if you were running a big iron tube amp into a 4x12 with V30's. If you get those mids sitting right then you aren't going to get lost.

What I haven't nailed down yet is the studio monitor thing. I've tried micro monitors on up to 8" monitors, and so often the guitar gets lost because the midrange gets drowned out by the highs and lows. I'm curious about trying a 3-way setup, either with smaller monitors and a subwoofer or proper 3-way monitors. It's possible the speaker crossover on your typical 2-way monitor sits in a critical frequency for guitar, or maybe the woofer is just trying to do too much. Guitar speakers are 1-way systems without a crossover...modern monitors are trying to put out so much bass in a small ported enclosure that they may have essentially nerfed the mids to make it work.
 
What I haven't nailed down yet is the studio monitor thing. I've tried micro monitors on up to 8" monitors, and so often the guitar gets lost because the midrange gets drowned out by the highs and lows.
You need to upgrade your monitors, then. Lots of "studio" monitors have response peaks at ca. 100Hz and 8-10kHz. This is sometimes defended as "loudness compensation" - IOW, an attempt to compensate for the response variability of human hearing with volume - but it imposes an undesirable sonic signature on everything that you listen to.
I'm curious about trying a 3-way setup,
If you don't actively seek out a response upgrade, it won't help. Three way speakers are just as likely to have the above-described response peaks as are two way types.
modern monitors are trying to put out so much bass in a small ported enclosure that they may have essentially nerfed the mids to make it work.
No. The bass peak is intentional. See above.
 
My procedure has nothing to do with "liked best when playing music through them." Read it again, and give it some more thought.

I did read it. And maybe "like" wasn't an appropriate word. Anyhow, I prefered different monitors for monitoring music than for monitoring guitars. For me, that's an important takeaway.

you may well discover that you don't like the sound of the presets you've built.

No. I absolutely like them through studio monitors and quality headphones. They also seem to sound great through PAs.
I just happen to think that for onstage monitoring different qualities than linear performance are relevant.
 
No. I absolutely like them through studio monitors and quality headphones.
Do you like listening to recorded music "through studio monitors and quality headphones?" If so, then you simply have yet to find a stage monitor that performs sufficiently well.
They also seem to sound great through PAs.
What do you think a full range stage monitor is? (Hint: it's a PA speaker.)
I just happen to think that for onstage monitoring different qualities than linear performance are relevant.
You've just managed to shoot down your own argument.
 
Do you like listening to recorded music "through studio monitors and quality headphones?" If so, then you simply have yet to find a stage monitor that performs sufficiently well.

What do you think a full range stage monitor is? (Hint: it's a PA speaker.)

You've just managed to shoot down your own argument.

You don't even understand what I wrote.
 
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I run the Helix Stadium into 3 outputs depending what I am doing.

1/4” goes into my Orange Pedal Baby power amp, then into my Peavey 12” cab. Sounds amazing in the room.

XLR goes into my audio interface for recording or direct to my studio monitors.

Headphone out to a pair of Beyerdynamic 770s.
The orange pedal baby is one I always forget about. I need to spend time with one. On paper it seems kind of perfect but I feel like I don’t see much about it.
 
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