The Modeling Amplification Thread

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EOengineer

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With the recent release of Helix Stadium, the Fractal AM4, and the rising quality of inexpensive modeling and capture oriented hardware, there’s likely going to be an uptick in folks dipping their toes into amplifying their fancy new modelers. Let’s help them get up to speed by discussing our amplification strategies, tools, and tips.

Here’s a great starting resource, I’ll add others as they surface.

blog.line6.com

Eric Klein: At Least Half of Your Modeler’s Sound Is Determined by Your Playback System - Model Citizens

The Helix mastermind details the pros and cons of seven popular playback options and explains why your choice is critical to your tone.
blog.line6.com
 
I’ll start. I have a couple different “rigs” I use for modeling amplification.

Modeler -> tube power amp:

This setup involves split paths where I’m sending either a Helix preamp model OR a full amp model into the a tube power section and traditional guitar cab on one side and then straight to FOH with the other. This is the best feeling right now, as well as the most traditional. Unfortunately it still requires toting around a tube rig and marries me to a single cab. Some may argue that negates some of the advantages of going with modeling. I’m neutral.

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Modeler -> RCF HD10a FRFR Wedge:

This is my full range setup. Sometimes I’ll use it at rehearsal or pull it to shows where I’m not sure what kind of reinforcement I’m going to have available.

It’s probably the least pleasing to play until the monitor gets some real volume, at which point things start getting better. For this rig I usually just use 1 path and push the same tone to FOH. Occasionally I’ll split the paths and pull down lows and highs on the monitor path.

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Modeler -> BAM200 -> Guitar Cab

The BAM200 rig originally started as a backup option for the first rig I posted. I needed something to fall back on if the tube power amp failed mid gig. This thing was $150 and fit in the small pouch in the Helix backpack. Done.

The BAM doesn’t have the headroom to fully reproduce the weight of the tube powered modeling rig, but it’s surprisingly usable and presents a great alternative when I want the traditional guitar cab playing experience without toting around an additional 60lb tube setup.

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As I move forward, my next move is to replace the BAM200 with something bigger, more powerful, more able to reproduce the big dynamics we get from the tube rigs we know and love.
 
I use a Seymour Duncan Powerstage Solid-State power amp into a variety of guitar cabs through a cab switcher. Sounds great to me.

Unless you're playing at very loud volumes requiring heaps of power, I find this works great.
 
The same principles have always applied. To the extent that you believe your modeler accurately captures all the sonic elements of a guitar amp/cab, you will want your amplification to add as little coloration as possible and to do so at an SPL that is sufficient for your purposes. I first published an evaluation procedure for full range amplification ca. 2006. It requires no instrumentation other than your ears and is still valid all these years later. If you learn to use critical listening to evaluate and compare your options, you can make a choice with confidence and will be much less susceptible to the ubiquitous "new and improved" consumer-scamming mentality.

If you have issues with cab simulation - as many do - but are satisfied with the amp portion of what your modeler does, you may fare better with a clean power amp and guitar cab as monitor. If you aren't satisfied with the power amp simulation in your modeler, I've got to ask why you even bother with a modeler. Get a tube amp you like and be done with it.
 
I’m good with plugging into the return or “power cab in” of most amps.

What would be cool for the future Katanas and Catalysts would be if the EQ controls could double as a simple EQ before the power amp when you plug into the “power cab in” option. I know I can go into the global eq for this, but it’s nice to just be able to just twist a knob fast.
 
I'm not gigging atm, but if that happens soon I'd be willing to give the AM4 (or Stomp) into a pair of FR10s a go. As long as there's ample headroom I'm good. Worse case is it's not ideal for a certain situation, but then I can always use tube amps and pedals if I want too. At this point it doesn't matter too much to me, other than I'll do my best to play well and make it sound good as necessary. :grin
 
EOengineer said:
As I move forward, my next move is to replace the BAM200 with something bigger, more powerful, more able to reproduce the big dynamics we get from the tube rigs we know and love.
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Im interested to see where you end up next in this leg of your adventure. I too have a BAM200 but haven't used it outside of my home yet.
 
I'm not a live performer. The more I use modelers, the more I just use them with headphones and my home recording monitors. I would find the entire live sound aspect of it challenging in contexts in which I couldn't go direct. At one level, I think I'd have to just choose an 'FRFR' powered monitor of some sort, say "close enough," and move on.
 
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In order of preference (for live performances) among the solution I have/had.

Tube amp FX return (using full models not pre amp only) into a 4x12 or 2x12 cab for personal monitoring + direct sound to foh if needed. That's the best solution I've experienced so far.

Solid state amp (Seymour Duncan powerstage 700) into a 4x12 or 2x12 cab for personal monitoring + direct sound to foh if needed. Not as good as using a tube power amp but very good nonetheless.
Feeling is different, no doubts about it.

Powered cab: the Line6 Powercab 212 worked very well for me (using IRs and not the onboard speaker sims). Had 2 of them for a long time: stacked or side by side they gave me a very good volume and weight to the sound.
Not my favorite solution but proved to work with no issues in a 2 guitars hard rock band with the other player using tube amps. Very practical, pretty flexible, good sounding but different than a real cab. If you have to get used to it especially if you come form real amps and cabs.

Floor wedges. I usually hate them for guitar monitoring in general. I much prefer having my own cab on stage and use the wedges for everything else. Having your guitar on a different source helps your stage mix a lot.
 
ChordInversion said:
I'm not a live performer. The more I use modelers, the more I just use them with headphones and my home recording monitors. I would find the entire live sound aspect of it challenging in contexts in which I couldn't go direct. At one level, In think I'd have to just choose an 'FRFR' powered monitor of some sort, say "close enough," and move on.
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Most people don’t like to admit it but live tone is a collection “close enough” compared to studio/recording.
 
i recently began playing the helix thru the power amp input of a 15 watt bassbreaker combo, and have been enjoying it. i think i'd like to continue using something similar when i start playing out again, but haven't figured out exactly what yet. i'll be using an am4 instead of the helix though

i'd like find a fairly flat sounding, and light power amp that can built into a tweed style chassis, then mount that in a light weight pine cabinet. i've been trying to run down something online, but haven't had any success. anyone have ideas?
 
HotRats said:
Floor wedges. I usually hate them for guitar monitoring in general. I much prefer having my own cab on stage and use the wedges for everything else. Having your guitar on a different source helps your stage mix a lot.
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Unless I'm forced to use IEMs, I use floor wedges exclusively, but I strongly agree on the last sentence, which is why I always try to bring my own personal wedge for my guitar stuff and use whatever the venue provides for the rest.
 
After switching to modelers I took a very long journey through amplification approaches. I settled on this:

Want the familiar backline sound? Use the traditional setup. Which is a guitar cab, powered by a power amp. In this case a neutral power amp. My Matrix still serves me well. Had a Fryette Power Station which was only a tiny bit better in the lows but required trade-offs in the modeler settings when combined with direct FOH signal. Fractal, a good ss power amp, and a guitar cab can compete against any traditional tube amp rig.

FRFR monitors (I used many) are great when used as such: for floor monitoring. Not as a backline to fill the room. Too much tinkering, and the sound (guitar AND band-in-the-room) can suffer when not dialed in correctly.
 
jay mitchell said:
If you aren't satisfied with the power amp simulation in your modeler, I've got to ask why you even bother with a modeler. Get a tube amp you like and be done with it.
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I haven’t had an opportunity to hook my Fractal or Hx Stadium to the BAM/Cab rig yet, but I’ve always had just ok results with Helix in that type of configuration. Thats probably due to deficiencies in Helix, and almost certainly the BAM, but IMO these are common hurdles that I suspect many of us have experienced chasing these types of rigs. We’re not all using top shelf modelers and amps unfortunately. The best compromise I found was to feed Hx preamp models into a tube preamp. That will hopefully change soon.

The goal has ALWAYS been to try to replace the tube gear. My next move is to chase down a better power amp. Feel free to recommend any favorites. I’m sure you have great input there.

yek said:
After switching to modelers I took a very long journey through amplification approaches. I settled on this:

Want the familiar backline sound? Use the traditional setup. Which is a guitar cab, powered by a power amp. In this case a neutral power amp. My Matrix still serves me well. Had a Fryette Power Station which was only a tiny bit better in the lows but required trade-offs in the modeler settings when combined with direct FOH signal. Fractal, a good ss power amp, and a guitar cab can compete against any traditional tube amp rig.

FRFR monitors (I used many) are great when used as such: for floor monitoring. Not as a backline to fill the room. Too much tinkering, and the sound (guitar AND band-in-the-room) can suffer when not dialed in correctly.
Click to expand...
I forget if we’ve talked about this, but I’m very interested in the matrix power amps to level my situation up a bit. Would you mind elaborating a bit on which one you have, what cab you’re using it with, and what kinds of sounds you’re using?

Generally the higher gain stuff I find can be fairly tolerable. It’s when I try to step down into non master volume amps (Plexi, Deluxe Reverb) where things feel very dry/flat and obviously not tube. Part of that is IMO the Helix but I think I need more than 200 watts to get that punch happening.
 
It's such a journey lol. I've tried ss with my quilter. Fx returns of multiple different tube amps. Into the front of an amp just for the effects w no amp blocks. 4CM with tube amps. There are pros and cons of each.

I'll have a really good rehearsal or show and then not like it the next time lol.

Tonight just for fun and bc my amps and cabs are already there I'm going to use the top row of my qc for effects only into my recto and then the bottom row with effects and an amp block into my quilter. Be interesting to see how tube and ss setups blend together.
 
I just came back home from a jam session. My friend's band was playing and they asked me if I wanted to stop by and sit in for a few songs. They told me to just bring the guitar and they'd have a spare rig set up for me.

I get there and the "spare rig" was a Katana 212. And I have to say: it sounded damn good.

I plugged in, switched to the Lead channel, quickly dialed in the gain and EQ, then added a touch of delay and boost just with the front panel knobs. It took me a whole 10 seconds to dial in a tone I was completely happy with for that situation.

IMHO, that's how digital should always work. Technology is supposed to make life easy.

I'm not saying the Katana is the best modeler out there, but it's definitely good and IMHO Boss has the right approach with that amp: a digital rig that delivers as much instant satisfaction as a regular rig. Price point is right too.
 
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