Should flagship modelers keep up with the latest standards?

What would you say are the innovations of the Kernom Ridge and Meris LVX?

The Kernom is a programmable analog drive, which is not that different from e.g what Chase Bliss does with the Automatone, just without the motorized faders. Or what Strymon does with the Compadre for digitally controlled analog comp/boost/drive, or mostly digital with the Riverside and Sunset.

The Meris LVX has such a vile user interface to it that I don't want anyone to take inspiration of it. I can't believe someone designed that thing in this age. Whatever fancy things it can do for control and sounds is entirely lost due to the user experience.

I do agree that there's a lot of inspiration that could be gleaned from keyboards and synths though. There's a lot of "out of the box" thinking there that just doesn't exist for guitar. While some of it ends up being perfect for exactly 5 people, at least developers are trying new things rather than fitting everything into the same paradigm.

I'm curious to see if Line6 especially will do something different for next gen and not just make a "Helix 2.0" with touchscreens and whatnot. I'm less confident in Fractal trying to shake up theirs because their overall workflow is still largely the same as it was in the first gen Axe-Fx.
You can replace Meris and Kernam with whoever is properly innovating. I’m not going to die on that hill.

I think Line 6 will put their big innovations in some more non-flagship modeler products before releasing the Helix replacement.

I actually don’t conceptualize the Fractal products as a workstation. They’re more like the wicked expensive cutting edge synths with tons of knobs and sliders (gasp!).
 
Some people might 'make music' if their workflow is enjoyable and inspiring.
You mean like the "workflow" involved in learning to play guitar? Or violin, or oboe, or saxophone, etc., etc? Is it your belief that the design of these instruments is somehow deficient because it takes years of effort to become good at playing them? Do you honestly believe that the time required to learn about signal processing - equalization, gain staging, dynamics processing (e.g., compression/limiting) - is significantly less? In order to effectively use a signal processing platform as powerful as a current modeler to make "inspiring" music, you're going to need that knowledge.

"Scribble strips, color coded footswitches, snapshots, mixed stomp/snap modes," and the like cannot eliminate the need to gain that knowledge. Once you have gained it and have acquired some hands-on time with a modeler, even a clunky UI won't be an impediment to making music.

Some might like to struggle to get to the music. It's all good.
"Getting to the music" is always a struggle carried out over a lifetime. Any notion that you can buy your way out of that struggle is delusional.
 
You mean like the "workflow" involved in learning to play guitar? Or violin, or oboe, or saxophone, etc., etc? Is it your belief that the design of these instruments is somehow deficient because it takes years of effort to become good at playing them? Do you honestly believe that the time required to learn about signal processing - equalization, gain staging, dynamics processing (e.g., compression/limiting) - is significantly less? In order to effectively use a signal processing platform as powerful as a current modeler to make "inspiring" music, you're going to need that knowledge.

"Scribble strips, color coded footswitches, snapshots, mixed stomp/snap modes," and the like cannot eliminate the need to gain that knowledge. Once you have gained it and have acquired some hands-on time with a modeler, even a clunky UI won't be an impediment to making music.


"Getting to the music" is always a struggle carried out over a lifetime. Any notion that you can buy your way out of that struggle is delusional.
Does every good or great musician or "fill in the blank" know the ins and outs of their tools of choice? Coaxing a great tone or feeling from your instrument is a totally different skillset than knowing how your instrument is constructed or even how to get the instrument to its optimal, peak performance level. I enjoy both aspects myself but there are many, many musicians who could give two shits about all the deep diving tech stuff, the why and how--- they just want the 'does it do this and this', so "i can handle the music side of things without any fuss".
 
Does every good or great musician or "fill in the blank" know the ins and outs of their tools of choice?
If they really are "good or great musicians," they know very well how to use those tools. And, more importantly, they put in the time required to acquire those skills. No purchase decision will render the payment of dues unnecessary....

Coaxing a great tone or feeling from your instrument is a totally different skillset than knowing how your instrument is constructed
That's a straw man. I made no reference to "knowing how your instrument is constructed." A master guitarist need not also be a luthier. Likewise, a skilled studio "engineer" doesn't have to be able to write DSP code or design analog circuits.

there are many, many musicians who could give two shits about all the deep diving tech stuff
Are you saying those musicians "don't give two shits" about knowing how to play their instruments? I know a few folks with that kind of attitude, but I don't characterize them as musicians.
 
Last edited:
A master guitarist need not also be a luthier. Likewise, a skilled studio "engineer" doesn't have to be able to write DSP code or design analog circuits.

This is true, though I'd argue many modern musicians tend to have at least rudimentary engineering skills given how vastly the landscape has changed post internet regarding the rise of DAW's and electronic distribution of music.
 
If they really are "good or great musicians," they know very well how to use those tools. And, more importantly, they put in the time required to acquire those skills. No purchase decision will render the payment of dues unnecessary....


That's a straw man. I made no reference to "knowing how your instrument is constructed." A master guitarist need not also be a luthier. Likewise, a skilled studio "engineer" doesn't have to be able to write DSP code or design analog circuits.


Are you saying those musicians "don't give two shits" about knowing how to play their instruments? I know a few folks with that kind of attitude, but I don't characterize them as musicians.
Honestly, I have no idea what you're on about. You threw out the straw man originally when you said:
it won't matter to anyone else what boxes your signal went through to get there
So is someone wrong for being ok with how they develop their sound to share with an audience-- no matter how they accomplish that? They must think a certain way and that's it??
I don't disagree with you about being a passionate musician that learns and grows musically, I'd have quit long ago if I wasn't driven by improving as a musician.
 
That's not a straw man; it's germane to the notion of "the latest standards." You know, the subject of the thread.
As to the subject of the thread -- I think modeling companies and designers should do whatever they want to do. :rofl
But hopefully one of their main goals is to help inspire artists to make great music through their product offerings. Part of that is giving the consumer what they want, and in time adjusting as little or as much as needed to stay in business.
My original response was only meant to say -- great music can be made from any instrument, whether that's on the latest and greatest, bells and whistles modeler--- or from a cello. The player dictates in that moment... and is inspired at least partly by the instrument (or instrument tool chest) no matter how complex or simple it is, and without necessarily knowing how the instrument does what it does.
 
The Meris LVX has such a vile user interface to it that I don't want anyone to take inspiration of it. I can't believe someone designed that thing in this age. Whatever fancy things it can do for control and sounds is entirely lost due to the user experience.
Have you used it first hand? I thought the user interface was fine. I just found the main selling point of “delay machine with all the sounds and modularity” very underwhelming. The thing models like 3 very basic delays and has pretty basic building blocks to work with…
 
I’m curious if anyone’s thoughts on this changed after Fractal’s seamless switching update yesteday?

While I agree with a lot of the sentiment behind @jay mitchell’s comments because they’re projections of how I carry myself, I think that debate diverged paths; we’re not talking about the merits of musical creativity or whether or not an audience cares about modeling features, just features that should or shouldn’t be standard across the tools we use for that creativity. You’re talkin’ about the art itself, the thread’s about the brushes.

There are indeed plenty of great musicians who don’t give a shit about or know anything about their rigs. Guys like Bradshaw, Friedman, LA Sound Design, Xactone, XTS, etc, all these rig builders wouldn’t have businesses if every guitarists knew their gear inside and out, how to wire it up for the quietest signal path with the most road worthy design. Lukather said in one of his REH videos “I have no clue how to program this stuff” and I’m pretty sure he said it in one of the ToneTalks in recent years. Just like Bradshaw dialed in EVH’s rack originally. Gilmour‘s tech is the one who brings gear to him for him to try out, Phil Taylor works Cornish and Bradshaw to figure out his rigs, Gilmour just says what he wants for sounds and they gotta figure it out.

Overall I think the musicians who are into the technology side (not sure if you took FuzzAce’s “tech” as technical playing?) of things are a much smaller niche than forums let onto. Whether or not they’re “good” is subjective, if their knowledge only extends to what they need to do their thing, it’s good for them and that matters more than any audience or listener’s opinion.
 
I’m curious if anyone’s thoughts on this changed after Fractal’s seamless switching update yesteday?

While I agree with a lot of the sentiment behind @jay mitchell’s comments because they’re projections of how I carry myself, I think that debate diverged paths; we’re not talking about the merits of musical creativity or whether or not an audience cares about modeling features, just features that should or shouldn’t be standard across the tools we use for that creativity. You’re talkin’ about the art itself, the thread’s about the brushes.

There are indeed plenty of great musicians who don’t give a shit about or know anything about their rigs. Guys like Bradshaw, Friedman, LA Sound Design, Xactone, XTS, etc, all these rig builders wouldn’t have businesses if every guitarists knew their gear inside and out, how to wire it up for the quietest signal path with the most road worthy design. Lukather said in one of his REH videos “I have no clue how to program this stuff” and I’m pretty sure he said it in one of the ToneTalks in recent years. Just like Bradshaw dialed in EVH’s rack originally. Gilmour‘s tech is the one who brings gear to him for him to try out, Phil Taylor works Cornish and Bradshaw to figure out his rigs, Gilmour just says what he wants for sounds and they gotta figure it out.

Overall I think the musicians who are into the technology side (not sure if you took FuzzAce’s “tech” as technical playing?) of things are a much smaller niche than forums let onto. Whether or not they’re “good” is subjective, if their knowledge only extends to what they need to do their thing, it’s good for them and that matters more than any audience or listener’s opinion.
This is why people like you Drew, you explain things better.:rofl
 
Have you used it first hand? I thought the user interface was fine. I just found the main selling point of “delay machine with all the sounds and modularity” very underwhelming. The thing models like 3 very basic delays and has pretty basic building blocks to work with…
I've tried it briefly at a store as it was on display, did not even plug in a guitar or anything. Hated the bubble UI, it just needed a lot of selection for anything. The Text view to me made more sense but was not that pleasant to use either.
 
For me it made things even clearer about what's here to stay as 'standard', it's usually the things that make the modeler obviously worse if taken away.
At the same time, any gaps on Fractal never bothered me and I found those highly technical 6 part posts on Fractal forums just the ramblings of someone who makes a mountain out of a molehill. Sure, removing the gaps is nice, but it doesn't really make a big difference to how I use my Axe-Fx 3.

I think of a lot of this stuff as "can I work around it?" or "how much will this frustrate me?" Something like the Fractal onboard UI is frustrating, but not to the point that I would actively avoid their gear, considering the Axe-Edit software is really good. I would have sent my first gen Axe-Fx Standard back if Axe-Edit did not exist in 2009. Instead back then I went all in and sold my tube amps (Egnater Tourmaster head and Diezel Einstein combo).

Similarly QC worked well from the onboard UI so the lack of a computer editor was never a big deal for me, more of a "nice to have."

By comparison something like the IK Tonex software and the way the pedal works beyond its two layers of knobs was something I knew would frustrate me. So I just didn't buy the pedal despite being very into it when it was first rumored.
 
Having owned Eventide rack gear, gaps have never bothered me since the moment that I moved to the first Axe-FX Standard and sold the Eclipse and the H3000. These did not had gaps, they had abysses! When switching between effects connected in series (e.g.: modulation) there was a total silence during the gap. You could not even hear the dry signal!!

I once complained at the old Eventide forum about the gaps of the Eclipse, and that smartass Italo told me that Eventide gear is meant to be used with professional equipment 😖 (at that time I had the Eclipse at the fx-loop of the Boss GT-Pro - which had zero gaps)
 
Last edited:
Having owned Eventide rack gear, gaps have never bothered me since the moment that I moved to the first Axe-FX Standard and sold the Eclipse and the H3000. These did not had gaps, they had abysses! When switching between effects connected in series (e.g.: modulation) there was a total silence during the gap. You could not even hear the dry signal!!

I once complained at the old Eventide forum about the gaps of the Eclipse, and that smartass Italo told me that Eventide gear is meant to be used with professional equipment 😖 (at that time I had the Eclipse at the fx-loop of the Boss GT-Pro - which had zero gaps)

Hahahahha Italo has told me my ears are broken because I love the TC Electronics G-Force and for some reason that dude REALLY hates that thing. :rofl
 
Hahahahha Italo has told me my ears are broken because I love the TC Electronics G-Force and for some reason that dude REALLY hates that thing. :rofl
I’m almost alone in not liking the h90/9 . The factor pedals sound massively better imo . It must be a hardware thing because the algorithms are supposedly the same on the H9. But I never thought Eventide reverb was good compared to my old Lexicon pcm 42 anyway and the old 2290 is still my favourite delay from a tone perspective.
 
Back
Top