Pick the real amp out from the emulations

[Orvillain]

Idunno which is which, but I prefer F and J, with F having a very slight edge over J. Several of the others have more bass than I want to hear in the chord portion of the intro, along with a slight excess of edginess in the single-note line that follows.

If you're really interested in mimicing tube amp behavior, it makes a lot of difference how the sound changes with your pick attack, guitar controls, and harmonic content (chords, double-stops, etc). Differences among rigs become much more apparent to me when they are demonstrated with a wide range of playing dynamics and chord voicings, and AC/DC really doesn't cover very much of that territory.

This is truly a nonissue and has been for years. Some folks prefer to play through tube amps because of their feel, but once the amp has a mic in front of it - or is loaded down and played through an IR - even that argument tends to fall apart. Since 2007, when I bought an Axe-Fx, I've had no problem getting the sounds and feels I want from a modeler/full range rig, but I'm probably an outlier for several reasons. One thing is certain: no amount of youtube clippage is likely to ever change anyone's mind. Folks who make purchase decisions based on demo clips are at least as likely to suffer bitter disappointment as satisfaction.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

If you're really interested in mimicing tube amp behavior, it makes a lot of difference how the sound changes with your pick attack, guitar controls, and harmonic content (chords, double-stops, etc). Differences among rigs become much more apparent to me when they are demonstrated with a wide range of playing dynamics and chord voicings, and AC/DC really doesn't cover very much of that territory.

This is truly a nonissue and has been for years. Some folks prefer to play through tube amps because of their feel, but once the amp has a mic in front of it - or is loaded down and played through an IR - even that argument tends to fall apart. Since 2007, when I bought an Axe-Fx, I've had no problem getting the sounds and feels I want from a modeler/full range rig, but I'm probably an outlier for several reasons. One thing is certain: no amount of youtube clippage is likely to ever change anyone's mind. Folks who make purchase decisions based on demo clips are at least as likely to suffer bitter disappointment as satisfaction.

I agree with all of this, although I don’t think less gain or complex chord voicings would reveal things in a way that would make it clearly obvious which is real. It might make them sound a bit more different, but I don’t think it would be clear which ones are real. Real amps vary so much in these regards too. With digital, sometimes aliasing or other artefacts can be something to consider but it’s less of an issue with less gain. I think digital can easily do a good enough job where people couldn’t reliably tell.

I used AC/DC here because a lot of guitarists mention it as a tone that digital struggles with. And also I often read how certain modellers can do it and others can’t.

 

[Fireproof]

Idunno which is which, but I prefer F and J, with F having a very slight edge over J. Several of the others have more bass than I want to hear in the chord portion of the intro, along with a slight excess of edginess in the single-note line that follows.

If you're really interested in mimicing tube amp behavior, it makes a lot of difference how the sound changes with your pick attack, guitar controls, and harmonic content (chords, double-stops, etc). Differences among rigs become much more apparent to me when they are demonstrated with a wide range of playing dynamics and chord voicings, and AC/DC really doesn't cover very much of that territory.

This is truly a nonissue and has been for years. Some folks prefer to play through tube amps because of their feel, but once the amp has a mic in front of it - or is loaded down and played through an IR - even that argument tends to fall apart. Since 2007, when I bought an Axe-Fx, I've had no problem getting the sounds and feels I want from a modeler/full range rig, but I'm probably an outlier for several reasons. One thing is certain: no amount of youtube clippage is likely to ever change anyone's mind. Folks who make purchase decisions based on demo clips are at least as likely to suffer bitter disappointment as satisfaction.

Off topic / tangential: Curious what your choice of speakers/amplification is for your Axe rig these days. Anything on the market, or some “unobtainium” you custom designed/built?

 

[JT]

Always Make It SoTM

 

[jay mitchell]

I agree with all of this, although I don’t think less gain or complex chord voicings would reveal things in a way that would make it clearly obvious which is real.

What I was talking about wasn't less gain. It's the way nonlinearities in the amp or sim change with differences in the level of the signal from the guitar at a constant gain setting (could be any amount of gain). It's not so much "edge of breakup" behavior - although that's important - as it is the way the device makes the transition from clean to hairy to fully saturated and back again. Some devices - including both tube amps and modelers - do this more smoothly than others, and some devices have "gain hysteresis:" they behave differently in decay than in attack. Finally, simple triads aren't what I'd call "complex chord voicings," but they do contain more harmonics than power chords and therefore tend to highlight differences among amps and modelers.

It might make them sound a bit more different,

Agreed, which is why I referenced "differences among rigs." When I'm listening to a recorded clip, I have no interest in which one is "real." They have all been recorded - usually with mics that add their own colorations - and are being played back over my speakers in my listening environment. Strictly speaking, none of them are "real."

Real amps vary so much in these regards too.

That is a point I've made repeatedly for years. Again, this is not really a controversial topic. There are tubes-only types, but those folks aren't likely to ever change their minds.

With digital, sometimes aliasing or other artefacts can be something to consider

I encountered audible aliasing in the first two modelers I (briefly) owned, but it ceased to be an issue when I got an Axe-Fx. It is also not a problem in Atomic modelers, and I suspect - but have not confirmed - that it doesn't affect other current designs.

I used AC/DC here because a lot of guitarists mention it as a tone that digital struggles with.

I understand. Contemporary guitar mythology holds, among other things, that "digital" can't do the Angus Young "kerrang." Interestingly enough, most of the folks who say that have only ever heard "digital" reproductions of that sound.

 

[jay mitchell]

Off topic / tangential: Curious what your choice of speakers/amplification is for your Axe rig these days.

It's almost always a small two-way powered monitor of my design. I used to use a larger one, but I downsized five or six years ago.

 

[Fireproof]

It's almost always a small two-way powered monitor of my design. I used to use a larger one, but I downsized five or six years ago.

Very cool. Thanks for sharing!

 

[pipelineaudio]

You might be onto something there. I would never voluntarily subject myself to either that guitar tone or that vocal sound for more than a few seconds, so the ability to duplicate either is moot to me.

You are just WAY too cool for school. Most of us can never hope to achieve the utter sommolier level of perfect taste you have, so could you please give us an example of a good 800 tone?

 

[paisleywookiee]

Jay Mitchell, when you finally reach the specific JCM800 tone that he’s got in his head:

 

[JT]

To be fair in Jay's direction; who picks the band Thursday as someone to use as an example for JCM800 tones

 

[MirrorProfiles]

To be fair in Jay's direction; who picks the band Thursday as someone to use as an example for JCM800 tones

Ha fair comment although I didnt start with thinking "I'm going to do a JCM800 test, what band should I reference?"

I just played a generic riff and they have plenty of those. I actually only listened to them for the first time last week, and if its the choice between something like them or back in fucking black, then there's no contest

 

[JT]

Ha fair comment although I didnt start with thinking "I'm going to do a JCM800 test, what band should I reference?"

I just played a generic riff and they have plenty of those. I actually only listened to them for the first time last week, and if its the choice between something like them or back in f*****g black, then there's no contest

I wasn't jumping on you either; just thought it was a left field example is all It actually reminded through the power of whatever association by genre it had to go listen to some Glassjaw so thank you for that nudge!

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I wasn't jumping on you either; just thought it was a left field example is all It actually reminded through the power of whatever association by genre it had to go listen to some Glassjaw so thank you for that nudge!

Ha I absolutely get your point. Glassjaw are rad!

 

[JT]

Ha I absolutely get your point. Glassjaw are rad!

Oh yeah. I was older than their target audience by a good bit when they came out. But they had that hardcore swagger down and vicious vibe while kind of having the Patton/Dillinger vocal abilities. Out of my general wheelhouse but just hit me the right way.

 

[jay mitchell]

Most of us can never hope to achieve the utter sommolier level of perfect taste you have,

"Sommolier?" Somalian liar? Some molier?

Oh. Maybe you meant to type somelier.

"Make sure to allow sufficient time for a tone to breathe before consuming."

"Each type of tone has a perfect age, at which time it has developed its fullest body."

"If you listen carefully with just your left ear, you can catch a trace of output transformer saturation."

so could you please give us an example of a good 800 tone?

Who said there is one?

 

[JT]

"Sommolier?" Somalian liar? Some molier?

Oh. Maybe you meant to type somelier.

"Make sure to allow sufficient time for a tone to breathe before consuming."

"Each type of tone has a perfect age, one at time it has developed its fullest body."

"If you listen carefully with just your left ear, you can catch a trace of output transformer saturation."


Who said there is one?

 

[James Freeman]

Example of a good JCM800 tone?
That's hard, a LOT of great records were made with a JCM800.

2203 on Metallica's Ride the Lightning is one example.

A few known guitar tracks using a JCM800.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I suppose others can decide if this is close or not, but I did this before using one of the helix plexi’s:



biggest part of this tone was blending 421 and 57 on a Marshall V30 cab

 

[DrewJD82]

Funny that I'm turning into a Fractal fanboi and disliking my Helix.... and in this shootout I hated the FM-3 and thought the Helix was the real amp. lmaoooo!

There’s been a few times with Sonic Drive Studio’s comparison clips that I’ve preferred the non-Fractal unit! It’s all good though, just more proof that all this gear is capable of making great tones and it’s ultimately up the person programming it to make them sound good!

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I suppose others can decide if this is close or not, but I did this before using one of the helix plexi’s:



biggest part of this tone was blending 421 and 57 on a Marshall V30 cab

To be frank, that sounds like the sound is being sent down a plastic vacuum hose that's being swung around overhead. Blending the two mics on the cab seems to be the biggest part of the problem.