Phono cables WTF!

[Eagle]

Some is but certainly not all.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The Hifi audiophile scene is rife with it. And unfortunately there are enough people out there without the capacity to see through it.

Somewhat agonising knowing people are being duped for such vast sums of money when it can almost always be spent more effectively and without supporting lying bastards. It’s predatory, taking advantage of well intentioned consumers who don’t know any better.

one of the worst offenders: https://www.audioquest.com/

AudioQuest NRG-Z3 IEC Mains Cable

The AudioQuest NRG-Z3 cables use direction-controlled Perfect-Surface Copper (PSC) strands in a 7-strand Semi-Solid Concentric conductor arrangement in which strands are packed more tightly and never change position within the bundle.

www.sevenoakssoundandvision.co.uk

£200+ for a 1m IEC cable FFS. Obviously none of their products have any actual measured data or specs.

Just think if that money went towards charity/something positive.

 

[Sascha Franck]

£200+ for a 1m IEC cable FFS.

I already posted a link to a german shop selling them above. Just not for 200 but for €1500. Yes, for a plain IEC cable.

 

[newholland]

audioquest are really NOT the worst, and by and large they make okay things. the super bespoke shit makes them look absolutely like walmart

id say, without question though, there are LOTS of differences and presentations youd never ever ever be exposed to when you hit a certain point of resolution with gear, and differnces in cabling really changes things. im not saying better or worse- theres both- but small changes in cabling can shift what any system sounds like. its just using those attributes to your advantage. and some are qualifiable and some are not. but nobody will ever provide data because its all situational and completely subjective... so that doesnt exist. and largely it won't ever. nobody ever asks for a 68.7% accurate cerulean blue when they paint... its just similar qualitative- ness.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

id say, without question though, there are LOTS of differences and presentations youd never ever ever be exposed to when you hit a certain point of resolution with gear, and differnces in cabling really changes things. im not saying better or worse- theres both- but small changes in cabling can shift what any system sounds like. its just using those attributes to your advantage. and some are qualifiable and some are not. but nobody will ever provide data because its all situational and completely subjective... so that doesnt exist. and largely it won't ever. nobody ever asks for a 68.7% accurate cerulean blue when they paint... its just similar qualitative- ness.

Regardless of whether I agree with this, the reality is there is virtually always way more low hanging fruit that would make a substantial difference that gets overlooked in these audiophile setups. Get the actual science backed stuff right and you’ll go a lot further than the voodoo nonsense.

Also simple tests demonstrating what effect these products is perfectly reasonably to do. If it can’t be shown in any test, then how can anyone be sure it’s doing something?

 

[nicolasrivera]

Guitarists - "We sure do make ridiculous claims about gear".

Audiophiles - "Hold my $2k cable tie".

Have you not tried that 2K cable between the MkIV head and a cab??? it makes the MESA sound like a Dumble! kid you not!

 

[Eagle]

Have you not tried that 2K cable between the MkIV head and a cab??? it makes the MESA sound like a Dumble! kid you not!

You miss the point.

 

[Eagle]

Regardless of whether I agree with this, the reality is there is virtually always way more low hanging fruit that would make a substantial difference that gets overlooked in these audiophile setups. Get the actual science backed stuff right and you’ll go a lot further than the voodoo nonsense.

Also simple tests demonstrating what effect these products is perfectly reasonably to do. If it can’t be shown in any test, then how can anyone be sure it’s doing something?

The cable in question in my post has a 60 day no quibble money back warranty so you can try it with your own system . If it doesn’t make any difference no one would keep it. I have had a demo of it and you can tell fairly easily between it and a regular high end coaxial. It definitely sounds better. If that difference was worth £1k is the part I quibble about, mainly because the materials used don’t warrant the cost.

 

[newholland]

Regardless of whether I agree with this, the reality is there is virtually always way more low hanging fruit that would make a substantial difference that gets overlooked in these audiophile setups. Get the actual science backed stuff right and you’ll go a lot further than the voodoo nonsense.

Also simple tests demonstrating what effect these products is perfectly reasonably to do. If it can’t be shown in any test, then how can anyone be sure it’s doing something?

um. your EARS?

theres little to no science posited to musicians for anything even close to sonics other than inconsistently documented frequency response curves thatre mostly meaningless. i dont disagree with you in principle, but ALL audio is mojo unless YOU measure it. and winding geometries, insulation composition, and all that biz isnt really gonna be daily convo unless you do it for a living.

im not sure what you mean by 'low hanging fruit in audiophile setups'- because its not just crazy expensive cables that do these things- the same principles apply amongst non ether breathing types as well. cables, despite it seeming nuts, sound markedly different... and theyre some of the least expensive ways to change otherwise good sounding gear to make it more amenable to other gear.

frinstance.. i have a somewhat dark 150 watt amplifier. i have a mid- rich sounding preamp and a DAC thats very neutral. so i feed the output of the preamp a minorly midscooped presentation via one cable, and use a silver conductor from the dac which would typically be bright and fast. thw combo sums to a kinda lush, but nice mix with great dynamics thatre just a little subdued. its just analog filters as basic eqs. you COULD use eqs or dsp, and a lotta people do. but lotsa ways to skin a cat, as they say.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

i dont disagree with you in principle, but ALL audio is mojo unless YOU measure it. and winding geometries, insulation composition, and all that biz isnt really gonna be daily convo unless you do it for a living.

im not sure what you mean by 'low hanging fruit in audiophile setups'- because its not just crazy expensive cables that do these things- the same principles apply amongst non ether breathing types as well. cables, despite it seeming nuts, sound markedly different... and theyre some of the least expensive ways to change otherwise good sounding gear to make it more amenable to other gear.

frinstance.. i have a somewhat dark 150 watt amplifier. i have a mid- rich sounding preamp and a DAC thats very neutral. so i feed the output of the preamp a minorly midscooped presentation via one cable, and use a silver conductor from the dac which would typically be bright and fast. thw combo sums to a kinda lush, but nice mix with great dynamics thatre just a little subdued. its just analog filters as basic eqs. you COULD use eqs or dsp, and a lotta people do. but lotsa ways to skin a cat, as they say.

Care to show me and talk me through your acoustic treatment?

um. your EARS?

Doesnt have to be one or the other. If you can demonstrate it AND hear it then you’re onto something. If our brain thinks we’re hearing something but no one can find a way to demonstrate it, then it’s probably in our heads. Our brains do things like that unfortunately, we’re highly suggestible. Some people more than others.

theres little to no science posited to musicians for anything even close to sonics other than inconsistently documented frequency response curves thatre mostly meaningless.

Thats just not true though. There’s loads of ways to prove it far beyond frequency response curves. It’s also easy enough to just record both examples and listen back to them. Why don’t these companies just show A/B examples? If there is less distortion, why not provide measurements, like DAC’s and preamps do?

The cable in question in my post has a 60 day no quibble money back warranty so you can try it with your own system . If it doesn’t make any difference no one would keep it. I have had a demo of it and you can tell fairly easily between it and a regular high end coaxial. It definitely sounds better. If that difference was worth £1k is the part I quibble about, mainly because the materials used don’t warrant the cost.

Record a snippet of dark side of the moon playing through it and then through your other cable and let’s hear it. I agree that cables can be a factor, but these cables are not where it’s at.

 

[newholland]

MP- man i know from where you come, honestly, and i think you're asking the impossible economically inside capitalism. thats FAIR to ask for objectivity. then, theres capitalism.

im with you. it doesnt exist. whats more, sonics beyond a certain point of resolution, arent measurable- theyre textural - which SOUNDS like bullshit- but its similar to amp feel, which is NOT measurable sonically. its often time related information thats not the 2d version of reality an FR curve gives. cant describe it better.. but its hard to qualify. are there people who get hamstringed by it? fuck yeah. capitalistic competition all but guarantees it. i never paid for this stuff, so i dont care. but as a guy who puts band in front of mics... i listen. theys different sounding. if coat hangers sounded good id use them.

the other thing is, distortion specs dont tell the truth about anything as to how you perceive music. ive heard watt and a half tube amps generating shockingly live sounding music thats super close to real life dumping 2% distortion and hyper accurate two hundred thousand dollar krell/wilson megawatt systems shred my ears like cheese graters with near perfect specs. yuck!

all im saying is suspend your disbelief a teeny bit and just look at a low part preamp like an api. not super accurate, not mega perfect, but good sounding. the parts matter. cables are similar, and not classically demonstrable as to why other than the sum of its parts.

also- if you measure MOST things now- we have lots of well measuring gear full of chip amps. they arent always soulful sounding.. so measurements only get you so far for the meat and potatoes of human musical performance. some of that stuff is just lightning in a bottle.

so yeah, it can sound like hoodoo. and some people are suckers. but theres ways to use those things as tools if you listen sensitively. if you were close id say bring some beers, ill show ya!

 

[OrganicZed]

Fwiw, I once had an audiophile friend who was even running a HiFi shop for a while). They had an incredibly optimized room and he would sometimes insist on having me listen to some stuff. The prefered medium back then was direct-to-vinyl-cuts (super-super-super expensive stuff). Just that each and every of those vinyls only ever seemed to be made to impress folks by whatever audio whereas all musical aspects would play no role at all.
IIRC, this here is one of the recordings that people had to listen to endlessly:

Yeah, what an immense joy!

I read a line about a month ago that relates to this exactly. I don't recall the exact wording, but the gist was that most people use an audio system to listen to music while audiophiles use music to listen to an audio system.

 

[nicolasrivera]

You miss the point.

Well, you missed my joke.

 

[Eagle]

Care to show me and talk me through your acoustic treatment?

Doesnt have to be one or the other. If you can demonstrate it AND hear it then you’re onto something. If our brain thinks we’re hearing something but no one can find a way to demonstrate it, then it’s probably in our heads. Our brains do things like that unfortunately, we’re highly suggestible. Some people more than others.

Thats just not true though. There’s loads of ways to prove it far beyond frequency response curves. It’s also easy enough to just record both examples and listen back to them. Why don’t these companies just show A/B examples? If there is less distortion, why not provide measurements, like DAC’s and preamps do?

Record a snippet of dark side of the moon playing through it and then through your other cable and let’s hear it. I agree that cables can be a factor, but these cables are not where it’s at.

What part of it costs £1k you test it on your own system at home and if you don’t think it’s worth it send it back for a full refund didn’t you understand? Do you think that business model would work if it doesn’t make an obvious difference?

 

[Sascha Franck]

but its similar to amp feel, which is NOT measurable sonically

It is.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Do you think that business model would work if it doesn’t make an obvious difference?

Of course.

 

[Eagle]

Of course.

Elaborate . I assume you have experience with this kind of equipment. They literally tell you to try it at home and if you’re not 100% happy to send it back for a full refund.

 

[Eagle]

It is.

It absolutely isn’t. The things that you can measure are only part of the equation. It’s a bit like comparing a piece of art with a dot to dot picture.
With guitar tone it doesn’t matter though because accuracy is irrelevant unless you stupidly claim that modelling can replicate an amp with a 100% accuracy.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I assume you have experience with this kind of equipment. They literally tell you to try it at home and if you’re not 100% happy to send it back for a full refund.

Sure. But the audiophile world is full of brand loyality, placebo and not trusting your own ears. "If others say so, it must be true".
Add to this the "Look at my gorgeous home audio system!" effect.
I've been a witness of this happening quite sometimes.

 

[Sascha Franck]

The things that you can measure are only part of the equation.

Ok, which exactly are the things you can't measure in an amp's "playing feel"?