Ok, time to solve this problem

[metropolis_4]

This has been driving me crazy with digital and last night was the final straw.

Here’s what I need to figure out:

When I play a show, during the performances I’m typically using IEMs and everything goes direct. But before that there are a few rehearsals where we’re set up in a room with no PA.

I need a better way to amplify myself during rehearsals. Ideally using the same sounds I’ll be using for the performances.



"FRFR" sucks. It doesn’t work when I’m playing with other instruments that aren’t coming through a PA. I get buried in the mix and I’m somehow both too loud and too quiet at the same time. The frequency response is all wrong and it just doesn’t sit right in the mix.

Thinking about maybe going with a power amp and speaker cab? But I don’t want to have to dial in tones for both rehearsal and the show…


This is where I miss tube amps. It was so much easier to reach over and turn a couple knobs while playing to account for the room.

I’ve even thought this is where a Tone Master amp would make a lot of sense. Turn on the speakers for rehearsal, turn them off and plug direct at the shows. Same amp, same tones. The only problem is that I’m stuck with a Fender amp all the time and they’re not usually my favorite choice. And then I still need to figure out how to handle all the acoustic instruments

Maybe something like one of those new Fender powered cabs?

What would you do?

 

[Mongillo19]

I think we've found time and time again you prefer tubes. Just lean into it!

 

[OrganicZed]

I don't think there exists a solution to the issue you're running into.

Perhaps a compromise solution could be to go with something like a Suhr PT15IR or the Soldano Astro 20 that features a built in reactive load box and IR loader. That would allow you to go direct with an IR for the shows and into a speaker cab for rehearsals.

Any digital solution with enough I/O could do the same thing. Run a power amp and cab as well as the direct out to the mixer board. Digital will give you all of the effects and flexibility that you could want, but will lack the tactile controls to dial it in for the room on the fly like you are asking for.

Edit: I thought of another possible compromise. Use a digital rig and try running an "FRFR" cab but don't use an IR. Use the GEQ to create a filter instead as outlined in this video. This will give you the immediacy and punch that "FRFR" with an IR tends to lack and it might fit better in an ensemble context. Then just run the outputs to the mixer board for the shows as usual.

 

[metropolis_4]

I think we've found time and time again you prefer tubes. Just lean into it!

I do, but it’s hard to make that work for what I’m doing.

Probably shouldn’t have sold that Mark VII

 

[Mongillo19]

I do, but it’s hard to make that work for what I’m doing

But on the flip side, I have to imagine it's hard always feeling like your settling/not happy with your situation?

 

[JiveTurkey]

Fender FR12.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

This has been driving me crazy with digital and last night was the final straw.

Here’s what I need to figure out:

When I play a show, during the performances I’m typically using IEMs and everything goes direct. But before that there are a few rehearsals where we’re set up in a room with no PA.

I need a better way to amplify myself during rehearsals. Ideally using the same sounds I’ll be using for the performances.



""FRFR"" sucks. It doesn’t work when I’m playing with other instruments that aren’t coming through a PA. I get buried in the mix and I’m somehow both too loud and too quiet at the same time. The frequency response is all wrong and it just doesn’t sit right in the mix.

Thinking about maybe going with a power amp and speaker cab? But I don’t want to have to dial in tones for both rehearsal and the show…


This is where I miss tube amps. It was so much easier to reach over and turn a couple knobs while playing to account for the room.

I’ve even thought this is where a Tone Master amp would make a lot of sense. Turn on the speakers for rehearsal, turn them off and plug direct at the shows. Same amp, same tones. The only problem is that I’m stuck with a Fender amp all the time and they’re not usually my favorite choice. And then I still need to figure out how to handle all the acoustic instruments

Maybe something like one of those new Fender powered cabs?

What would you do?

I would shift the focus of what I was trying to achieve with my rehearsal tone at these occasional "all of us just in a room together".

That tone is there to serve a purpose -- get everyone up to speed on the music/cues/timing. Why worry about dialing in a "good" tone that is literally only going to be heard for rehearsal? Everyone there is focused on learning parts, cues, etc. I doubt anyone else in that room is going to be giving any kind of tonal critique, only caring about volume. To the extent that they are giving tonal critiques...if they are professionals, they should understand that the sound one is generating in a rehearsal with no sound reinforcement is NOT the sound one will be generating on the gig.

I find it hard to believe that you can't use an "FRFR" to FUNCTION quite well in this scenario. I would think turning on a global EQ would give you enough tweakability to allow you to get your gig patch to FUNCTION in this environment -- to be heard by other players without being too loud. Go to the EQ block at the beginning of the rehearsal and you should be able to do whatever "turn around and turn a couple of knobs and boom" stuff you need in terms of making sure you are heard without being too loud in at least as easy a way as you would with a tube amp. You probably won't love the tone, but who cares? During that period and focus on what those rehearsals must be for -- getting the music, playing, transitions tight. It doesn't matter how perfectly tuned your tone is for that rehearsal because as soon as you get past that stage to using the PA/IEMs for tech/dress rehearsals and performances, it is going to sound different and the other musicians are going to have to adjust.

Or flip this rig, buy a tube amp, be frustrated with it, and rebuy this rig again. I'll happily take whatever FC controller you are currently using off your hands

 

[dbagchee]

Yep agree with @Boudoir Guitar - and if "FRFR" isn't working at rehearsal just setup your patches with a route that bypasses the speaker cab and run into a poweramp/cab or tube amp fx return/cab - tones should be close enough for rehearsal and then you aren't mucking with your patches that have been dialed in for your performances.

 

[Jarick]

Agreed on the Fender "FRFR"...it should have a lot of tonality of a real amp while hearing the cab sim/IR, and you have EQ controls to adjust to taste for monitoring. Or you could try something like a Katana or Catalyst as a cheap and light power amp and cab.

 

[JiveTurkey]

The Fender is awesome on it's own. Just like any other modeling monitor; it's a little less dynamic/"flatter" compared to whatever tube amp you are currently enamored with but is overall still very pleasing. I flip flop between it and the Stealth/Celestion F12x rig quite a bit but the Fender has won out more often than not as of late and I am not feeling like I am missing out on anything.

 

[creative360]

You use the word “ideally” in your post. If those non-PA run-throughs are mostly about music transitions cues and parts, maybe this is an opportunity to enjoy the convenience of a small amp, whatever it is, rather than the burden of creating a sonic facsimile of the ultimate production.

 

[TJontheRoad]

I'd try IEM's that aren't fully isolated. You get the best of both worlds.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Just like any other modeling monitor; it's a little less dynamic/"flatter" compared to whatever tube amp you are currently enamored with

How would a linear amp be less dynamic than a tube amp? The whole point of a tube amp according to the troo beliebers is to remove dynamics by being non linear

 

[pipelineaudio]

Agreed on the Fender ""FRFR""...it should have a lot of tonality of a real amp while hearing the cab sim/IR, and you have EQ controls to adjust to taste for monitoring. Or you could try something like a Katana or Catalyst as a cheap and light power amp and cab.

What makes the fender "FRFR" different than others?

Aside from the noise issue I mean

 

[metropolis_4]

Fender FR12.

Is the noise issue with those real, or over-hyped?

I would shift the focus of what I was trying to achieve with my rehearsal tone at these occasional "all of us just in a room together".

That tone is there to serve a purpose -- get everyone up to speed on the music/cues/timing. Why worry about dialing in a "good" tone that is literally only going to be heard for rehearsal? Everyone there is focused on learning parts, cues, etc. I doubt anyone else in that room is going to be giving any kind of tonal critique, only caring about volume. To the extent that they are giving tonal critiques...if they are professionals, they should understand that the sound one is generating in a rehearsal with no sound reinforcement is NOT the sound one will be generating on the gig.

I find it hard to believe that you can't use an ""FRFR"" to FUNCTION quite well in this scenario. I would think turning on a global EQ would give you enough tweakability to allow you to get your gig patch to FUNCTION in this environment -- to be heard by other players without being too loud. Go to the EQ block at the beginning of the rehearsal and you should be able to do whatever "turn around and turn a couple of knobs and boom" stuff you need in terms of making sure you are heard without being too loud in at least as easy a way as you would with a tube amp. You probably won't love the tone, but who cares? During that period and focus on what those rehearsals must be for -- getting the music, playing, transitions tight. It doesn't matter how perfectly tuned your tone is for that rehearsal because as soon as you get past that stage to using the PA/IEMs for tech/dress rehearsals and performances, it is going to sound different and the other musicians are going to have to adjust.

Or flip this rig, buy a tube amp, be frustrated with it, and rebuy this rig again. I'll happily take whatever FC controller you are currently using off your hands

Ultimately the main goal of the rehearsals is the music, but I have very little time to set up sounds for shows and so it is very helpful for me to also be able to use them as an opportunity to hear my tones in the context of the ensemble and take notes about what’s working and what’s not so I can make changes between rehearsals.

One instrument coming out of an "FRFR" just isn’t working for me when all the other instruments are either acoustic or coming through amps.

 

[spawnofthesith]

You're in CO right?

https://fortcollins.craigslist.org/msg/d/fort-collins-mesa-boogie-guitar-amp/7767766133.html

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Is there any easy way to have a room mic that feeds your in ears for rehearsals? In other words, you’re listening to the same ‘source’ in rehearsals as you are in performance. Doesn’t matter that the others aren’t on in ears as long as you are and you control the ratio of the room mic to your own signal feed…

 

[Frankencat]

The frequency response is all wrong and it just doesn’t sit right in the mix.

You said it right there. You have to tweak it at volume to get the response that sits right in the mix. You also have to understand that you are not going to hear the same thing as an amp sitting on stage next to you - it's more like the sound of a mic'd up cabinet coming through wedges. Once you can get down with that you will be golden. If not, then "real" amps are the way. I have use each depending on the situation.

 

[AFKAEjay]

Here’s what I do:
I choose my 2 reference devices…those represent “the truth”, that’s what I dial my sounds on. If I don’t do that…I’ll go mad, keep dialing forever..counterproductive.
I use studio reference monitors for my cabsimmed sounds, and my fav tube powersection/cab for my stage sound.
I’m fully aware that PA/volume might require something different then reference monitors…but that’s something you do at the gig, at the desk…use of reference monitors give you the best middleground as a startingpoint.

I find a cabsim that matches my real cab as close as possible…and I apply that for all my sounds to foh.
Then I’ll dial in my sounds going back and forth between the 2 reference systems, play along with some tracks, use reference audio recordings for the cabsimmed sounds…at the end of which I have sounds that work on both my studio monitors, as well as my amp.

Then at the gig/rehearsal …offcourse everything is different…that’s how it works
First…I dial the global eq to compensate for the situation…if I monitor on cabs…I’ll leave cabsimmed sound alone…I assume there I did my homework right, and that the soundguy is capable.

Usually it’s “at good as it gets in the situation” then…if I need to do something in specific presets, I’ll make the change (assuming it works for foh)…and make a mental note to evaluate the change on my reference systems.

By doing so, I prioritize my monitor sound…but that’s all you can control. Hearing what the audience hears is an illusion..never gonna happen…and its irrelevant when you did your homework right, and you gave the soundguy something good to work with.
I put stage sound first cause thats my responsibility, and a requirement for the band to perform its best. maybe cause I play improvised music it weighs a little bit more, but I also believe it to be true for other styles. For foh…you do the best you can before the gig…but then it’s up to the tech.

 

[Frankencat]

Is the noise issue with those real, or over-hyped?



Ultimately the main goal of the rehearsals is the music, but I have very little time to set up sounds for shows and so it is very helpful for me to also be able to use them as an opportunity to hear my tones in the context of the ensemble and take notes about what’s working and what’s not so I can make changes between rehearsals.

One instrument coming out of an ""FRFR"" just isn’t working for me when all the other instruments are either acoustic or coming through amps.

This is one scenario where I prefer to use an amp onstage. Recently I have been working with the Tonex into Fender FR-10, it's getting better but the jury is still out.