New modeler: Analysis paralysis (book)

[Sascha Franck]

but I am certain you can hear the difference between different headphone outputs. Much of that is due to the quality of conversion.

No. From all I know, the kind of converters we're talking about are pretty cheap today, no need to degrade the quality here. It's likelier that the op-amps are the culprit here.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Many people throughout the ages have complained that the loop of their amp, or the loop of their MFX alters the sound.

Conversion quality is one of the factors that can be at play, although it may be less important the better conversion gets. But absolutely a decade ago it was a factor, and two decades ago it was an undeniable factor.

Discriminating ears can hear the difference between them. You can argue that for a guitar signal chain it doesn't matter, but in a MFX, it is absolutely 100% important when listening to headphone outputs for silent practice. There is still a noticeable difference in quality between headphone amps. Conversion is one of the factors involved and having an absolutely silent noise floor is needed for the illusion that you are not wearing headphones.

I am not set up to measure the audio quality of my headphone output, but I can tell the difference in quality between different units. Just because most people can't prove it with sophisticated measurement, does not mean it isn't true.

Someone complained about the quality of the VP4 in his signal chain. I suggested someone run ten generations of loopback through it to see what it does, vs same loopback through a patch cable. I agree in testing and measurement, just don't have the ability to do it.

Lots of words and yet no measurements.

I've got plenty, and so does anyone who has actually tested these claims rather than just talk about them

Analog to Digital Converters

TL;DR – Here is the cheap to the pretty penny. Including a 20 year old MOTU 2408 MKII! They are all so ridiculously close to each other! Please don’t let claims of converter quality kee…

pipelineaudio.net

 

[laxu]

Many people throughout the ages have complained that the loop of their amp, or the loop of their MFX alters the sound.

Conversion quality is one of the factors that can be at play, although it may be less important the better conversion gets. But absolutely a decade ago it was a factor, and two decades ago it was an undeniable factor.

Discriminating ears can hear the difference between them. You can argue that for a guitar signal chain it doesn't matter, but in a MFX, it is absolutely 100% important when listening to headphone outputs for silent practice. There is still a noticeable difference in quality between headphone amps. Conversion is one of the factors involved and having an absolutely silent noise floor is needed for the illusion that you are not wearing headphones.

I am not set up to measure the audio quality of my headphone output, but I can tell the difference in quality between different units. Just because most people can't prove it with sophisticated measurement, does not mean it isn't true.

Someone complained about the quality of the VP4 in his signal chain. I suggested someone run ten generations of loopback through it to see what it does, vs same loopback through a patch cable. I agree in testing and measurement, just don't have the ability to do it.

Conversion quality is the least of your concerns when different amps have different fx loop circuits with different send/return levels etc. You are going to find way more variation there than with converters.

My experience is that I don't have any issue with Helix or Fractal in this regard as long as the levels are set right on all devices. I have had amps where you can bypass the loop so it would be easy to hear audible differences. It always came down to levels, like just a few dB less through the loop and you start to think you have "tone suck".

 

[Shredder777]

Sometimes I feel like being able to use the front panel of a Fractal product would score more brownie points than playing “Cliffs Of Dover” note for note. Maybe I need to start posting FM9 editing videos instead of guitar playing ones.

Eight year old chinese boy can play Cliffs of Dover. At least start with some Malmsteen.

 

[Shredder777]

My experience is that I don't have any issue with Helix or Fractal in this regard as long as the levels are set right on all devices. I have had amps where you can bypass the loop so it would be easy to hear audible differences. It always came down to levels, like just a few dB less through the loop and you start to think you have "tone suck".

Yet, some devices do 4cm better than others. I can't be the only one to have experienced this?

Some are completely transparent. Some are close to transparent. Others you have to work to make sure the levels are good and then you don't notice for the most part, but you can still tell.

 

[la szum]

This thread exists somewhere between a Horse being led to Water, and still refusing to drink,
and a Horse already dead, still being beat to death again and again and again.





Tell me I am wrong.


Go!

 

[Shredder777]

This thread exists somewhere between a Horse being led to Water, and still refusing to drink,
and a Horse already dead, still being beat to death again and again and again.





Tell me I am wrong.


Go!

People are arguing about things I've already decided on. I don't care what other people can hear or can't hear. That don't concern me.

Thanks to laxu and feedback from some other members, its clear that QC is the only one that meets my requirements. Second place is either TMP or just adding a ToneX to my current rig.

Thanks again to the people who offered their experience.

 

[JiveTurkey]

The QC levels are super quiet comparatively and it's got a bad noise floor.

 

[Sleezy E]

This thread exists somewhere between a Horse being led to Water, and still refusing to drink,
and a Horse already dead, still being beat to death again and again and again.





Tell me I am wrong.


Go!

 

[pipelineaudio]

People are arguing about things I've already decided on.

There you go.

For the reason based community, we care whether or not our beliefs are true and are just as thankful when someone disproves one of our beliefs as when they confirm them.

 

[Frodebro]

There you go.

For the reason based community, we care whether or not our beliefs are true and are just as thankful when someone disproves one of our beliefs as when they confirm them.

That's the rational versus emotional thing I mentioned earlier. Sometimes you just have to step back and let things run their course.

 

[Shredder777]

That's the rational versus emotional thing I mentioned earlier. Sometimes you just have to step back and let things run their course.

His was largely a straw man argument. He didn't rebut anything I said, he just waved his hands and screamed "100000x this.. " or something.

Paying for a domain name and posting a few frequency graphs does not make him an expert, does not mean his information is correct, and does not mean what he is posting translates to what can or can't be heard. Its just not worth getting into a detailed debate with a patzer who does not respect rules of debate and is making ad hominem attacks.

My decision process was guided by many factors, conversion quality was not the highest on the list. However, converter specs and audio performance are measurable things, and headphone tranparency is important. Also anecdotes about "colored loop" also carry some weight, but it was not the reason I disqualified Fractal from consideration. None of the devices were disqualified because of quality of conversion.

Again, thanks to the half of posters who provided useful feedback with their experiences to help in my decision making.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Again, more time was spent posting words than would have taken to prove your claim. Kind of tells its own story.

I'll help you. Here's some free measurement software that will help provide evidence either way. Should take you all of a few minutes to install and run some tests

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

 

[Frodebro]

His was largely a straw man argument. He didn't rebut anything I said, he just waved his hands and screamed "100000x this.. " or something.

Paying for a domain name and posting a few frequency graphs does not make him an expert, does not mean his information is correct, and does not mean what he is posting translates to what can or can't be heard. Its just not worth getting into a detailed debate with a patzer who does not respect rules of debate and is making ad hominem attacks.

My decision process was guided by many factors, conversion quality was not the highest on the list. However, converter specs and audio performance are measurable things. Also anecdotes about "colored loop" also carry some weight, but it was not the reason I disqualified Fractal from consideration. None of the devices were disqualified because of quality of conversion.

Again, thanks to the half of posters who provided useful feedback with their experiences to help in my decision making.

It's not a big deal, really. Some people dove headfirst into digital technology, some are dipping their toes cautiously in the water, and some are simply not ready to let go of what they're used to. That's just human nature, most people tend to resist change as it removes us from our comfort zone.

You're obviously at the point where you're cautiously taking those first steps, and the best that the rest of us can do is try to give you honest, objective answers. Such as when you said that the Fractal UI is bad, a few of us responded based on our personal experiences. Not to say "You're full of shit," but more to give you more accurate information with which to make your final decision.

 

[Shredder777]

It's not a big deal, really. Some people dove headfirst into digital technology, some are dipping their toes cautiously in the water, and some are simply not ready to let go of what they're used to. That's just human nature, most people tend to resist change as it removes us from our comfort zone.

You're obviously at the point where you're cautiously taking those first steps, and the best that the rest of us can do is try to give you honest, objective answers. Such as when you said that the Fractal UI is bad, a few of us responded based on our personal experiences. Not to say "You're full of shit," but more to give you more accurate information with which to make your final decision.

I worked with Boss UI for years, so I know I could make the Fractal work. After using the G11 and then getting a GT1000, it was too much of a step backwards in the UI (IR handling) that I couldn't do it, even if I thought it sounded better (it didn't).

If I knew that UI design was frozen and there would never be an updated Fractal, I might be more inclined to get on board, but I suspect their next gen will be much improved. I can wait.

Actually, I've been in the home recording space since late 90s, putting all manner of rigs together. Someone who is newer to the game might have the perception that conversion doesn't matter, because it was all largely quite good over the past decade.

Putting the Fractal in the comparison made me really consider all the strengths/cons. If they released a FX One pedal in the 600-700 range that had a simple interface like a Strymon Iridium, I would get it immediately.

 

[Frodebro]

Putting the Fractal in the comparison made me really consider all the strengths/cons. If they released a FX One pedal in the 600-700 range that had a simple interface like a Strymon Iridium, I would get it immediately.

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if they released something using the VP4 platform. Maybe an amp block, cab block, and just a couple of effects blocks. Basically their answer to a ToneX, only with their modeling instead of captures. I passed on the VP4 for the time being as it doesn't fill any gaps in my requirements, but a compact and very basic amp+effects unit would be a hard one to look away from.

 

[TubeStack]

I'm sure you can do the things you need at a gig. But did you create the patches on the FM9 or did you do it in the software?

You're really overblowing/stating this. I'm primarily an amp+ pedals guy with very limited tech ability, and had no problem doing everything on the FM9 and FM3, including creating patches. You speak in pretty certain terms without ever trying one.

 

[Shredder777]

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if they released something using the VP4 platform. Maybe an amp block, cab block, and just a couple of effects blocks. Basically their answer to a ToneX, only with their modeling instead of captures. I passed on the VP4 for the time being as it doesn't fill any gaps in my requirements, but a compact and very basic amp+effects unit would be a hard one to look away from.

All it would need is a parallel routing. Each path would have a boost / amp / cab. And a way to toggle between the paths and turn the boost on/off.

 

[Frodebro]

All it would need is a parallel routing. Each path would have a boost / amp / cab. And a way to toggle between the paths and turn the boost on/off.

Fractal can do that in a single path with channels.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I worked with Boss UI for years, so I know I could make the Fractal work. After using the G11 and then getting a GT1000, it was too much of a step backwards in the UI (IR handling) that I couldn't do it, even if I thought it sounded better (it didn't).

If I knew that UI design was frozen and there would never be an updated Fractal, I might be more inclined to get on board, but I suspect their next gen will be much improved. I can wait.

Actually, I've been in the home recording space since late 90s, putting all manner of rigs together. Someone who is newer to the game might have the perception that conversion doesn't matter, because it was all largely quite good over the past decade.

Putting the Fractal in the comparison made me really consider all the strengths/cons. If they released a FX One pedal in the 600-700 range that had a simple interface like a Strymon Iridium, I would get it immediately.

if you’ve been in the home recording space since the 90s, have owned many modelers going at least as far back to HD500 and STILL don’t know what amp you want, I honestly don’t know what to say. Talk about analysis paralysis.