New modeler: Analysis paralysis (book)

[Shredder777]

Recently got a Friedman IR-X which sounds really good with external eq tweaks. Using it in loop of G11, perfectly credible 100% tube tone, the bottom end is tight but lively. The built in G11 Krampus model is very close, and can be almost indistinguishable through same IR at full gain, but it doesn't roll off as well. The IR-X isn't perfect, and its not a "real" BE100 preamp afaict (it basically has only one sound and the eq is very basic), but it does give several switched levels of gain and responds to volume perfectly.

So I'm thinking, this is good, but ...I'm still seeking a real tube style, thick layered gain of a 5150 or Engl. At a crossroads, thinking about an ANTI or v550 pedal, but then I realize I could upgrade to a new modeler and have many more options. The following is my thought process. Please let me know where I am fundamentally wrong.

Fractal FM3
+ Possibly the best amp models (Do they have the last 5% tubeness that the IR-X gives?)
+ Would fit on board
+ Tweaker paradise
- Really bad, terrible on board UI.
- Latency 3ms per loop, running an external preamp in loop will probably be 5-6ms+, not great as real amp harness.
- Only one loop (have read fractal loop can color the tone.. unconfirmed)
- Need a volume pedal ($200)
- Limited switching options with only three buttons.
- Bad switching lag requires scene programming
- Tweaker hell
(Summary: A plethora of realistic amp models, but maybe not quite the last 5% a real tube preamp gives. Limited switching, tweaker's paradise/hell.)

Quad Cortex
+ A growing list of impressive amp models (profiles?)
+ Would fit on board
+ Profiling
+ Two loops
+ Touch UI (mixed reports)
- Expensive
- Slow development pace, limited selection of FX.
- Have heard that Fractal models are a tiny bit better and have more air.
- Need volume pedal ($200)
- Profiling not as good as ToneX
- Latency with effect chain and loop 5ms+
- NDSP plugins are paid content
(Summary: Is it the best all around modeler in 2024? Does it do any one thing the best?)

Fender ToneMasterPro
+ Most attractive UI
+ Fits on board
+ Two analog loops plus two digital loops
+ Reported great conversion specs, havent heard reports of colored conversion.
+/- Model quality is "up there" but how does it compare to fractal?
- Horrendous latency when combining full effect chain with a loop
- Need external volume pedal ($200)
- Lacking effects at this price point, unknown the pace or quality of support.

Line6 Anything
+ Greater variety of effects than any brand
- Sound quality is not an improvement on what I have.
- Lesser conversion quality, reports of colored loops
(Summary: I'm looking for better amps, not more effects)

Headrush Anything
+ Excellent UI
- Amp quality reportedly not great
- High reported latency
- Not a great selection of effects
(Summary: Out of consideration because of latency, no improvement in models)

Zoom G11 (Keep what I have)
+ Inexpensive
+ Two loops, high quality conversion
+ 2ms latency per round of conversion
+ Excellent UI
+ Multiple IRs per patch, easily loaded through app or thumb drive
- Amps are good, but not best in class.
- Limited global options
- Limited EQ options.
- No future support patches
- Too simple
(Summary: Keep this inexpensive mfx and supplement with IR-X and ToneX in the loop. Deal with lacking eq shaping by printing IRs)

Boss GT1000
+ Boss tweakability
+ Two loops
+ Best latency of any device
+ Amp switching
- Pretty bad interface in 2024, uninspiring
- Amps not my preference
- Complicated setup and routing
(Summary: I bought and returned this. Not in consideration because of UI and poor IR handling. Doesnt give me better amps)


What it comes down to is that the FM3 probably has the best amps, but a horrible UI. Affordable.

The Quad Cortex has apparently nice UI and sounds, but costs almost twice as much. Spending 2K for nice (but not best models) when I have ToneX on my computer doesn't make sense for me.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

1. This talk about conversion quality is ridiculous and has to stop.
2. If you think that Fender‘s amp models are „up there“ but the ones in Line 6 devices are not you are indeed fundamentally wrong.

 

[Shredder777]

1. This talk about conversion quality is ridiculous and has to stop.
2. If you think that Fender‘s amp models are „up there“ but the ones in Line 6 devices are worse you are indeed fundamentally wrong.

Ok, rule #1 of my thread. If you think Line6 modeling is anywhere near the top devices, we are too much in disagreement to make any progress. I do not believe Helix models are anywhere close to Fractal, not even as good as Zoom/Boss. This is my opinion, but there isn't getting over it. There are artifacts and compression that I hear in every amp that I associate as the "Helix sound", that I find disagreeable. I understand that other people don't hear these things or hear them and think they are desirable. Also, I'm not going to invest in a ten year old platform.

Conversion quality is of utmost importance. My primary use case is to have a real amp in the loop and use the MFX as a switching harness for reamping through RL. If I can hear coloration from the loop, it is no good.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Wauw

 

[Joshual-L]

Fractal FM3
+ Possibly the best amp models (Do they have the last 5% tubeness that the IR-X gives?)
+ Would fit on board
+ Tweaker paradise
- Really bad, terrible on board UI WRONG
- Latency 3ms per loop, running an external preamp in loop will probably be 5-6ms+, not great as real amp harness.
- Only one loop (have read fractal loop can color the tone.. unconfirmed)
- Need a volume pedal ($200)
- Limited switching options with only three buttons. NO
- Bad switching lag requires scene programming NO
- Tweaker hell
(Summary: A plethora of realistic amp models, but maybe not quite the last 5% a real tube preamp gives. Limited switching, tweaker's paradise/hell.)

Where are the missing 5% ?

 

[Enchilada Jones]

I just sent the IR-X back after receiving the Nano Cortex and trying a few Friedman captures. Sure the captures don't let you dial it from near clean to heavy heavy gain within the one capture but considering I want a few preset 'snapshots' of my preferred gain settings and switch between them with footswitching/midi It didn't make sense to only have the one 'amp' compared to all the Nano can provide.
Neither are perfect but for my needs the Nano easily replaces the IR-X

And, yes, from my experience the Fractal devices deliver the best replication of the full amp experience if you want to just tweak away at a single model and have a 'a real amp' experience. Assuming you want to replace the output of a real amp/cabinet in the room with whatever you want to use to amplify your Fractal models with.

 

[Shredder777]

I just sent the IR-X back after receiving the Nano Cortex and trying a few Friedman captures. Sure the captures don't let you dial it from near clean to heavy heavy gain within the one capture but considering I want a few preset 'snapshots' of my preferred gain settings and switch between them with footswitching/midi It didn't make sense to only have the one 'amp' compared to all the Nano can provide.
Neither are perfect but for my needs the Nano easily replaces the IR-X

This is sorta what I'm thinking at the moment.

But I don't know how captures respond to volume changes (I have heard not great).

At the end of the day, the IR-X is just one sound. I got a taste of better and I want more.

 

[GTR37]

I think your a great dude
I like reading your posts but being totally honest every time I see a Zoom Krampus in the conversation I feel like we are being trolled

 

[Enchilada Jones]

I found the capture I settled on for my favorite Friedman BE 'preset' on Nano has a gain roll off on the guitar volume pot equal to the IR-X. Some captures work better than others in that regard.
I set the IR-X and Nano up side by side and tried to make the IR-X compel me to keep it but it became obvious it wasn't a better option and obviously limited. I wouldn't say it is 'only one sound' but it is only one amp replication and the Nano has it covered...and then provides countless other amps too.

 

[Shredder777]

I think your a great dude
I like reading your posts but being totally honest every time I see a Zoom Krampus in the conversation I feel like we are being trolled

I get that! I wouldn't expect you to believe without evidence. If I keep the IR-X I will have time to make a demo.

I have it AB with the IR-X and it has identical gain structure, similar EQ. It doesn't respond as well to volume changes, but it sounds and feels the same when playing on high gain setting.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

If you’re happy with the zoom, I think basically any of the above (besides Headrush or Boss) would be a solid option. Helix, Fractal and NDSP have the BE100 nailed, and capture tech is all more than good enough too.

I think there is way more to converter quality than simply noise floor. There are so many more things I’d be concerned about when using a modeller.

I’m also not sure how much of an issue the colouration from loops or latency ACTUALLY are, despite how much they got brought up.

What’s the intended use for this rig? Is there any criteria that are most important to meet? Maybe that’ll inform the decision a bit?

 

[Shredder777]

What’s the intended use for this rig? Is there any criteria that are most important to meet? Maybe that’ll inform the decision a bit?

A recording and live playing harness. Amp in loop, another loop that receives output from RL, run through effects. Ability to reamp the DI through real tube amp in loop. If the mfx does not have two loops, I have to recable.

Loop A - amp input/send (mfx out to amp's amp's return, 4cm for playing in room, while recording the DI)
Loop B - RL return (reamping through Loop A send, return B)

In the past I used my RL output into my interface and adding effects in Guitar Rig. I want to do all the effects in a hardware modeler this time so I have them live while playing and recording the DI, and then also later going back to reamp the DI.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

A recording and live playing harness. Amp in loop, another loop that receives output from RL, run through effects. Ability to reamp the DI through real tube amp in loop. If the mfx does not have two loops, I have to recable.

Loop A - amp input/send (mfx out to amp's amp's return, 4cm for playing in room, while recording the DI)
Loop B - RL return (reamping through Loop A send, return B)

In the past I used my RL output into my interface and adding effects in Guitar Rig. I want to do all the effects in a hardware modeler this time so I have them live while playing and recording the DI, and then also later going back to reamp the DI.

any reason not to use a gigrig (or similar) switcher and then whatever IR loader+FX unit of your choice?

 

[Byrdman]

IMO, your analysis doesn't consider cost. Not saying I disagree with everything you are saying, but you are putting everything in one cost bucket IMO skews your analysis. The fact that I can get Helix tones out of a $600 stomp and you are comparing that to a QC or Fractal is not the most accurate way to do it, also IMO.

To my ears, a Stomp is head and shoulders above anything with Zoom printed on it, and anything else in that price range, but I'm glad you like yours and we probably have different uses for what we are doing.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

Ok, rule #1 of my thread. […]

You suck.

 

[Mongillo19]

You suck.

If he doesn't like line 6 he doesn't like line 6

 

[paisleywookiee]

To my ears, a Stomp is head and shoulders above anything with Zoom printed on it, and anything else in that price range,

110%. It’s baffling to hear anyone like Zoom or Boss more, but hey, whatever floats his boat I guess.

 

[Shredder777]

To my ears, a Stomp is head and shoulders above anything with Zoom printed on it, and anything else in that price range, but I'm glad you like yours and we probably have different uses for what we are doing.

There was a MS80IR+ thread floating a few weeks ago where I posted side by side Choptones demos of Helix vs new zoom algos. Lets put it this way, if you listen to that and think the Helix algos are "head and shoulders above" then you are probably one of those people who hears the HX artifacts and conflate them with "realistic". That demo example showcases exactly what is wrong with the HX tones to my ears. Even on a low/mid gain amp there is a boxy compression that doesn't breathe.

But that doesn't matter. Helix is far in rearview mirror. Its been ten years they are due an update. I'm sure their next series will be fantastic.

 

[Shredder777]

any reason not to use a gigrig (or similar) switcher and then whatever IR loader+FX unit of your choice?

A mfx that is an audio interface can direct record DI alongside effect chain. Having an all in one box with the switching, effects, and reamping is preferable.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

There was a MS80IR+ thread floating a few weeks ago where I posted side by side Choptones demos of Helix vs new zoom algos. Lets put it this way, if you listen to that and think the Helix algos are "head and shoulders above" then you are probably one of those people who hears the HX artifacts and conflate them with "realistic". That demo example showcases exactly what is wrong with the HX tones to my ears. Even on a low/mid gain amp there is a boxy compression that doesn't breathe.

But that doesn't matter. Helix is far in rearview mirror. Its been ten years they are due an update. I'm sure their next series will be fantastic.

So why did you mention it in the first place? Do you want to be convinced that it's good? That will not happen because you said:

Ok, rule #1 of my thread. If you think Line6 modeling is anywhere near the top devices, we are too much in disagreement to make any progress. I do not believe Helix models are anywhere close to Fractal, not even as good as Zoom/Boss. This is my opinion, but there isn't getting over it. There are artifacts and compression that I hear in every amp that I associate as the "Helix sound", that I find disagreeable. I understand that other people don't hear these things or hear them and think they are desirable. Also, I'm not going to invest in a ten year old platform.

Do you want this forum to focus on a couple of brands only? Do you want to edit your first post and edited Helix out of the equation?