New Friedman head? Friedman Vintage

[Boudoir Guitar]

Just wondering why? With all the venues investing in their own sound systems and the trend to go quieter, I think these 20w amps hits the perfect spot.

As @Achilles said, these amps are running EL34's and IMO this is what makes them some of the loudest 20 watt-ers in the market. Small, Light, and Loud is what the market wants and they sees to be delivering.

Yeah, forgot about that. Nonetheless, if I'm going to be attaching something to the amp to make it quieter anyway, and what I'm after is a Marshall Plexi, I see no reason to get the "Plexi-inspired amp but in 20 watt format so its not so loud, even though its still so loud you need to use a load". Just get the "actual plexi that is the amp I want that is really loud, but I'm going to use a load so who cares".

 

[laxu]

Power scaling sounds like ass to me, I think a good master volume is just fine. Same goes for built in load boxes, and IR outputs. All stuff I’d prefer not to have.

Adding a PPIMV costs basically nothing in parts if a user wants it, although I think if Marshall did it from factory people wouldn’t complain. Its already designed to be smaller and less power, I think if its still too much (and a MV isn’t helping) then its the wrong product for the user. Theres always the 20W 800 and Jubilee if people want Marshall tones with a master volume too.

Origin is sort of a good case in point with a lot of this stuff - the power scaling is mostly a waste of time, the MV sucks tone, FX loop is only useful if you run the amp clean, and no matter how it’s set, if you want it crunchy like a Plexi it’s pretty uncomfortably loud. They’re not the sort of amps where you can compartmentalise the circuit, it just works better keeping it pure from start to finish IMO.

I feel like Marshall is the only who can't do this sort of amp..somehow. It's not some secret tech.

Bluetone here in Finland made a similar amp to the Friedman Plex called Plexi 25 and Plexi 50 many years ago already. The power scaling from what I remember worked just fine. They also made 5 and 10W versions but IMO the 25W with the power scaling in use sounded very similar to those low watt models, so I felt the 25 watter was more scalable and practical. I sometimes look to see if someone would sell one used cheap, in white as it would go great with my Bluetone 4x10...

While power scaling does tend to have more effect on the sound and feel than it does on volume, I think it's still a useful option to have. My favorite implementation so far was on the Egnater Tourmaster head where you could set power scaling per channel. I also had a little Stephenson amp with continuous power scaling and that worked pretty well too.

I guess Friedman might have opted instead for something more like a variac thing here for the high/low voltage modes on the Plex?

Then there's all the "Plexi style sound but designed from the ground up as MV amps" amps like the Friedman BE, Bogner Goldfinger, even my BluGuitar. These are my preference. Classic sounds, modern comfort.

 

[Eagle]

That would be cool, but it would probably be the most expensive 20w amp on the market and that would make a small target market.

IMO, that would only work cost effective-wise is if all that labor was done in Vietnam. Eventually I think they will move all the Studio Series to SE Asia which I would not mind. Imagine being able to buy all 4 studio series 20w tube amps @ about $500 each for about $2000-$2500 total for the set.

You can get them for that used in mint condition here already

 

[Eagle]

Surprisingly, both the SV20 and SC20 use a pair of EL34s.

That is one reason that they sound right . EL 84 amps don’t cut it for classic Marshall tone.

 

[JiveTurkey]

That is one reason that they sound right . EL 84 amps don’t cut it for classic Marshall tone.

EL84s are my Sire

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I feel like Marshall is the only who can't do this sort of amp..somehow. It's not some secret tech.

They’ve done tons of amps with various methods of power scaling and different master volume topologies. I don’t think it has anything to do with what Marshall are able to do, and is purely to do with what sells on a massive scale. It seems that the Studio series has been a massive hit for Marshall, and the extras mentioned here are probably an insignificant share of their potential audience.

Comparing to a small Finnish independent kit-builder is pointless - it’s catering to totally different sections of the market and with an insanely different scale of production. There are guys building affordable Marshall clones all over the planet, each with their own preference of circuits and extras.

I really don’t see the point in power scaling if you have an effective master volume, every time I’ve tried them I think the trade off isn’t worth it. I’ve never heard one where I thought the tone was better either, it’s always worse IMO.

The only “power scaling” I think has merit, is something like the Suhr SL where it’s essentially doing the EVH Variac trick. But even though it does make things a bit quieter, it’s more for the sonic effect than volume convenience.

Then there's all the "Plexi style sound but designed from the ground up as MV amps" amps like the Friedman BE, Bogner Goldfinger, even my BluGuitar. These are my preference. Classic sounds, modern comfort.

Over the years they’ve done all sorts of variants that are close as far as modern comforts - Vintage Modern, DSL’s, SL5. Presumably, when they put these extra features on people say “it’s not like a classic Marshall” and it doesn’t sell as well.

 

[ejecta]

Power scaling sounds like ass to me, I think a good master volume is just fine.

 

[laxu]

They’ve done tons of amps with various methods of power scaling and different master volume topologies. I don’t think it has anything to do with what Marshall are able to do, and is purely to do with what sells on a massive scale. It seems that the Studio series has been a massive hit for Marshall, and the extras mentioned here are probably an insignificant share of their potential audience.

I'd say cost is a major driving factor for the Studio series. But you could of course argue whether they are cheap if you still need to buy an attenuator to go with them...

Comparing to a small Finnish independent kit-builder is pointless - it’s catering to totally different sections of the market and with an insanely different scale of production. There are guys building affordable Marshall clones all over the planet, each with their own preference of circuits and extras.

They are not building kits, all their amps are their own designs even if they are very much based on the classics because that's what people buy. They do some sort of modular multi-PCB thing with toroidal transformers to keep the weight down.

The point was that there's not that much new in tube amp circuits. Friedman being a household name gives the amp a lot more value, even if everything it does has been executed somewhere else in one way or another.

I really don’t see the point in power scaling if you have an effective master volume, every time I’ve tried them I think the trade off isn’t worth it. I’ve never heard one where I thought the tone was better either, it’s always worse IMO.

I've found them useful on every amp I've had. I see them as just another tone/feel switch more than volume reduction though. For example the low voltage setting on the Bogner GF I had was just glorious because it dropped it from 45W to about 30W which reduced the spiky dynamics of a relatively high power amp, so the clean/edge of breakup tones sounded and felt much nicer.

Over the years they’ve done all sorts of variants that are close as far as modern comforts - Vintage Modern, DSL’s, SL5. Presumably, when they put these extra features on people say “it’s not like a classic Marshall” and it doesn’t sell as well.

That's a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" thing for sure. I'd love to see them try a reissue of the Vintage Modern because I feel it came out at the absolute worst time, when guitarists were way more purist about these things than they are now.

IMO Marshall has never quite nailed making master volume amps that actually work well at less than band volumes compared to other brands making Marshall style amps. Which has pushed me to buy those other brands instead.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I'd say cost is a major driving factor for the Studio series. But you could of course argue whether they are cheap if you still need to buy an attenuator to go with them...

I think with the Studio series, your average guitarist is going to walk into a guitar shop and try them all. They'll quickly realise whether they want an unapologetic Plexi, a smooth JTM45, or something with a master volume like a JCM800 or Jubilee. I think if they're considering a SV20, they're probably not expecting it to be a quiet and flexible amp, and if they want something more tamed and versatile, they'll just get one of the other models. For the minority of people that ABSOLUTELY MUST have a master volume on a SV20, they can just pay their amp tech $50 and it can be done pretty quickly. Marshall can (and should) do it from factory, but its dead simple for any tech to just add afterwards and isnt the sort of feature that would require a total rebuild of an amp. I'd even suggest any guitarist who is aware of PPIMV circuits, they're probably the same sort of people that have a particular preference on Plexi circuits and likely want to tweak a few values anyway. If they have power scaling, they might think "cool, extra feature for my money" and then they'll hear it and think "yeah this is barely any quieter and now the amp sounds crap" and never use it.

I think the Vintage Modern suffered somewhat by having the master volume, because people see it and naturally assume its not going to have any tonal detriment, so they set it lower. And when you do that, suddenly the tone suffers a bit, the presence doesn't work correctly and all of a sudden "its not a real Marshall any more". So in a lot of those cases, where the majority of guitarists aren't going to be technically aware of this stuff, it probably just leads to more problems than it solves.

I'm a big fan of the Vintage Modern, but I think there was a ton of mistakes with it - the name is misleading, the look is wrong (should have looked like a JTM45), HDR/LDR isn't really clear, it wasn't clear enough that its a single channel amp with 2 modes. Calling it JTM Modern or JTM Mod or something, and keeping the controls familiar would have fared a bit better (perhaps). I'd be surprised if Marshall brought it back, but maybe their Vietnamese factory gives them a bit more leeway for trying things and testing the waters.

On the whole, I think the whole mentality of "I want a nicely quiet amp, with a good master volume; I KNOW I'LL BUY A PLEXI" just makes no sense. Its a sum of the parts, its meant to be loud. If you want to trade off a bit of the pure tone of it, there's other amp circuits that do a variation better than just adding power scaling and PPIMV (which always have trade offs).

 

[laxu]

I think with the Studio series, your average guitarist is going to walk into a guitar shop and try them all. They'll quickly realise whether they want an unapologetic Plexi, a smooth JTM45, or something with a master volume like a JCM800 or Jubilee. I think if they're considering a SV20, they're probably not expecting it to be a quiet and flexible amp, and if they want something more tamed and versatile, they'll just get one of the other models. For the minority of people that ABSOLUTELY MUST have a master volume on a SV20, they can just pay their amp tech $50 and it can be done pretty quickly. Marshall can (and should) do it from factory, but its dead simple for any tech to just add afterwards and isnt the sort of feature that would require a total rebuild of an amp. I'd even suggest any guitarist who is aware of PPIMV circuits, they're probably the same sort of people that have a particular preference on Plexi circuits and likely want to tweak a few values anyway. If they have power scaling, they might think "cool, extra feature for my money" and then they'll hear it and think "yeah this is barely any quieter and now the amp sounds crap" and never use it.

I think the Vintage Modern suffered somewhat by having the master volume, because people see it and naturally assume its not going to have any tonal detriment, so they set it lower. And when you do that, suddenly the tone suffers a bit, the presence doesn't work correctly and all of a sudden "its not a real Marshall any more". So in a lot of those cases, where the majority of guitarists aren't going to be technically aware of this stuff, it probably just leads to more problems than it solves.

I'm a big fan of the Vintage Modern, but I think there was a ton of mistakes with it - the name is misleading, the look is wrong (should have looked like a JTM45), HDR/LDR isn't really clear, it wasn't clear enough that its a single channel amp with 2 modes. Calling it JTM Modern or JTM Mod or something, and keeping the controls familiar would have fared a bit better (perhaps). I'd be surprised if Marshall brought it back, but maybe their Vietnamese factory gives them a bit more leeway for trying things and testing the waters.

On the whole, I think the whole mentality of "I want a nicely quiet amp, with a good master volume; I KNOW I'LL BUY A PLEXI" just makes no sense. Its a sum of the parts, its meant to be loud. If you want to trade off a bit of the pure tone of it, there's other amp circuits that do a variation better than just adding power scaling and PPIMV (which always have trade offs).

I can agree with all that. Especially about how the Vintage Modern should have looked more like a JTM45, because that seems to be its heritage.

Marshall has a good video about the amp here where they talk about it with its designer:



Someone is selling a 50W model here in Finland for 750 € and I'm a bit tempted, though it's quite far away so it would have to be shipped.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Someone is selling a 50W model here in Finland for 750 € and I'm a bit tempted, though it's quite far away so it would have to be shipped.

€750 is probably what they're worth, they're just not a popular choice for people and go a bit under the radar. I paid £350 for my 50W over here, and it came with a 1960A. £750 gets you a used reissue JTM45 pretty comfortably on these shores. Maybe for that kind of money, I'd rather go for the JTM45 and mod it (I actually want to do this at some point, and turn it into a Dirty Shirley).....

Which, really is the perfect case in point for Marshall just selling basic caveman amps that look the part. Like, if its about owning something that says Marshall on the front, then the JTM45 looks cooler to own. Its not dissimilar to how I feel about a Les Paul - I don't really love Gibson's but the fact it has the right headstock and says Gibson on it just makes it feel like a cooler thing to own.

 

[Whizzinby]

I see the volume police are out again…

Some people don’t have volume restrictions and some own attenuators. If an amp is not your thing (or practical for you) that’s fine too.

 

[Whizzinby]

This amp is pretty cool, though I’d probably save a few hundred and just buy Marshall’s hand wired joint and get the big M logo on the front. The used market could be pretty nice on these though.

 

[Eagle]

I would love to see a 20watt JVM three channel head the size of the studio series. That would make sense.

 

[nicolasrivera]

I would love to see a 20watt JVM three channel head the size of the studio series. That would make sense.

And it would sell out in the first hour!

 

[Whizzinby]

Orange and purple! YES!!!!!

Those are pretty dope.

The standard one is kinda boring looking imo.

 

[nicolasrivera]

 

[Achilles]

Doug R.........................

 

[DrewJD82]

Sounds pretty damn great to me in every demo I've heard so far. Echoing others, I think I'm more likely to buy an actual Marshall for cheaper and if it doesn't do sometin' like that, get it modded.

 

[nicolasrivera]