NAM: Neural Amp Modeler

[MirrorProfiles]

@Sedaxel "So for NAM to be an option in that use case, I thing is crucial to normalize input gain and let the profiles (free or paid) be reliably available to avoid guessing. "

That will only be possible if everyone would use the same hardware for reamping (or list their dBu levels)

Yep - until users AND software developers acknowledge the subject and make it easy for users, all-in-one platforms have an advantage for consistency in this regard. Nothing that can’t be solved though but it requires a pro-active approach

 

[Sedaxel]

@Sedaxel "So for NAM to be an option in that use case, I thing is crucial to normalize input gain and let the profiles (free or paid) be reliably available to avoid guessing. "

That will only be possible if everyone would use the same hardware for reamping (or list their dBu levels)

Yeah, probably.

But there's a couple hopes, though.

One could be the Tonocracy way. To add a little calibration tool into NAM software to make easy to train the profiles with some kind of standardized gain. Yeah, it's not perfect, and lots of users won't do it right.

The other way could be to modify the trainer software to work different... Maybe in the style of Mooer GE Labs, which takes into consideration levels from the audio interface and stops the process if there are deviations.

But I'm only speaking without knowing a word about software programming. And I don't know either if that would be possible.

For me, that's the great (but really really great) advantage of Kemper and QC.

I use NAM with my own profiles because I know exactly how they must sound. But I have zero interest in loading 3rd party profiles because I'll never know if I'm experiencing a close behaviour to the real amp or not. However, I'm always considering to put my hands on a Kemper, even with its lower accuracy, because of the huge collection of profiles that for sure are fantastic.

 

[[Nathan]]

@ArteraDSP I’m giving GigFast a few spins and everything is pretty straightforward to use which is awesome.
For getting an input reading it would be cool if GigFast could give us a -dbfs input readout like Logic here. I know screen real estate is everything so maybe even if you tap the input it pops up a more zoomed in view with a good reading etc.

(Running an IPad Air 4th gen with Audient ID14mk2 here for anyone wondering the setup)

For the people that care (I mean most people should but that’s another topic) it’s basically mandatory to get a good reading of the input so we can adjust profiles to match. There are ways you could even expand this topic with capture metadata or saved scenes, but again that’s a whole other scope of development. Just having a nice legible input reading would be a great step. I had to install logic and signup for their trial because so many iOS apps don’t have this kind of info, if GigFast can have it right there, super handy stuff!

Also do you know what the GigFast amp models are calibrated to so we can match?

 

[ArteraDSP]

@ArteraDSP I’m giving GigFast a few spins and everything is pretty straightforward to use which is awesome.
For getting an input reading it would be cool if GigFast could give us a -dbfs input readout like Logic here. I know screen real estate is everything so maybe even if you tap the input it pops up a more zoomed in view with a good reading etc.

(Running an IPad Air 4th gen with Audient ID14mk2 here for anyone wondering the setup)

For the people that care (I mean most people should but that’s another topic) it’s basically mandatory to get a good reading of the input so we can adjust profiles to match. There are ways you could even expand this topic with capture metadata or saved scenes, but again that’s a whole other scope of development. Just having a nice legible input reading would be a great step. I had to install logic and signup for their trial because so many iOS apps don’t have this kind of info, if GigFast can have it right there, super handy stuff!

Also do you know what the GigFast amp models are calibrated to so we can match?

Thanks, your feedback is well noted. We will try to figure out a way to implement better reading. For GigFast amps since they are parametric and gain is behaving like actual amp gain what we suggest is to leave your interface input gain at minimum. You will be fine if you are hitting -18 to -12 range.

 

[ArteraDSP]

We are happy to inform you that macOS version is also available at App Store. I would also like to remind that subscriptions or lifetime purchases applies to both platforms if the same apple id is being used on the devices.

 

[Elric]

Has anyone / does anyone use a pedal sized interface for this kind of thing? I see this Teisco one is pretty reasonable but not sure if there's some drawback on latency or something I'm missing vs a portable interface?

Ironically the IK iRig Stomp with an ipad running gigrig lite would be an awesome little setup for its built in interface, ipad holder and switches all built into one. NAM running on ios just opens up the door for more pedalboard options.
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I actually have a MeloAudio ToneShifter Mega I may have to pull out for this:

I don't think those are still in production though; but I expect it to work with a new iOS device, since it is class compliant and works with Macs and past Phones, would just need a Microusb to USBc cable which I already have... Might be kinda fun to drag out and A/B vs the ToneX pedal.

 

[Elric]

@Sedaxel "So for NAM to be an option in that use case, I thing is crucial to normalize input gain and let the profiles (free or paid) be reliably available to avoid guessing. "

That will only be possible if everyone would use the same hardware for reamping (or list their dBu levels)

Yeah that's the sucky thing, re NAM... it's doomed to be unstandardized in this regard. No way to get that milk back in the carton, IMHO.

I don't think you are likely to get adoption of most of the ideas above from others without a concerted effort. You'd need a vendor to drive or someone who was profiting from it to take the reins, for that to happen, I think; and you'd still have all the new non-standard profiles have been created and are being created every single day that are out of whack until then. So it is very likely a lost cause.

 

[quadgear]

Has anyone / does anyone use a pedal sized interface for this kind of thing? I see this Teisco one is pretty reasonable but not sure if there's some drawback on latency or something I'm missing vs a portable interface?

Ironically the IK iRig Stomp with an ipad running gigrig lite would be an awesome little setup for its built in interface, ipad holder and switches all built into one. NAM running on ios just opens up the door for more pedalboard options.
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The XSonic XTone inteface pedals seem like they are well designed. Never tried one.

No: Your screen is not cracked. That's part of the image. Got me for a second....

 

[ArteraDSP]

 

[Sedaxel]

I tried both, the Melo Audio (there is a rebranded model in uncle Thomm, named MP500 or something like that) and the Xtone Pro.

Didn´t like any of them.

The Melo was limited in the MIDI CC implementation (you can´t define the value of a CC number). Moreover, the audio convertion is bad. When I recorded a take and watched its wave in a DAW, it was offset with respect to zero axis. And the peaks appeared to be much less defined than the same kind of recording through my EVO4. Besides, the built in analog boost of the input was noisy... it worsened considerably the input signa, it was basicly unusable. I think this device is just garbage, sorry.

And the Xtone Pro... I found it also very limited in the MIDI implementation. I don´t remember too well what was the problem. If I recall, I think it was that you couldn´t choose which CC to send or something like that (sorry, don´t have a fresh idea about it)... like if it was intended for using the MIDI learn funtion in the plugins. Another BIG issue is that the input was NOISY if I used a mic. I had to put in the middle a little 1:1 isolator to get rid of the noise. And finally... the guitar input had no gain regulation, no knob or whatever. Even when you can use the "new trend" of using minimum gain input for correct use of guitar plugins, it´s not a bad thing to have some kind of regulation. Then, taking into account the bad quality of the AD converters in the Melo Audio, I kind of have little trust in these chinese interfaces converter quality. If We are so enthusiastic about the accuracy and quality of NAM, it´s a real waste to use bad quallity interfaces, really.

The quality of these devices, in terms of AD/DA is not reviewed anywherre. We only have the marketing word of both companies (high quality 192kHz 24bit audio!!!)... but honestly, I think that, if someone made a serious review with measurements and so, We´d discover that all tha giltters is not gold.

They also claim "ultra low latency!!!"... I didn´t notice less latency with than a Zoom U-44 which I had at the time, either. I don´t remember if I made some RTL measure in that moment, but wasn´t specially impressed by that.

 

[EOengineer]

Don’t we have flair for vendors here??

 

[Elric]

I tried both, the Melo Audio (there is a rebranded model in uncle Thomm, named MP500 or something like that) and the Xtone Pro.

Didn´t like any of them.

The Melo was limited in the MIDI CC implementation (you can´t define the value of a CC number). Moreover, the audio convertion is bad. When I recorded a take and watched its wave in a DAW, it was offset with respect to zero axis. And the peaks appeared to be much less defined than the same kind of recording through my EVO4. Besides, the built in analog boost of the input was noisy... it worsened considerably the input signa, it was basicly unusable. I think this device is just garbage, sorry.

And the Xtone Pro... I found it also very limited in the MIDI implementation. I don´t remember too well what was the problem. If I recall, I think it was that you couldn´t choose which CC to send or something like that (sorry, don´t have a fresh idea about it)... like if it was intended for using the MIDI learn funtion in the plugins. Another BIG issue is that the input was NOISY if I used a mic. I had to put in the middle a little 1:1 isolator to get rid of the noise. And finally... the guitar input had no gain regulation, no knob or whatever. Even when you can use the "new trend" of using minimum gain input for correct use of guitar plugins, it´s not a bad thing to have some kind of regulation. Then, taking into account the bad quality of the AD converters in the Melo Audio, I kind of have little trust in these chinese interfaces converter quality. If We are so enthusiastic about the accuracy and quality of NAM, it´s a real waste to use bad quallity interfaces, really.

The quality of these devices, in terms of AD/DA is not reviewed anywherre. We only have the marketing word of both companies (high quality 192kHz 24bit audio!!!)... but honestly, I think that, if someone made a serious review with measurements and so, We´d discover that all tha giltters is not gold.

They also claim "ultra low latency!!!"... I didn´t notice less latency with than a Zoom U-44 which I had at the time, either. I don´t remember if I made some RTL measure in that moment, but wasn´t specially impressed by that.

Some good observations... If someone were incorporating this into a live rig they might want to look at other options based on the above... There are plenty of compact interfaces that would be small enough to mount on a board. You don't really need an interface with a footswitch if you have some kind of FX loop/Line selector type pedal and iOS devices can use any class compliant interface.

Messing with Gigfast on the phone and an Apogee JAM+ yesterday with headphones was really fun, was super easy to import NAM profiles and IRs definitely a cool development.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Just played with NAM for the first time tonight, since I remembered the only thing that held me back for so long was that my computer was a little too outdated to run it. Now with a new machine, I'm finally giving it a shot and am pretty amazed at how good some captures of the EVH 5150iii 50W Stealth sound and feel compared to the one I have.

 

[ArteraDSP]

Here is a video showing how to import NAM models and IRs inside GigFast Lite

 

[Alex Kenivel]

I'm rereading this thread over again (halfway through page 20/28). I had skimmed it a year ago when I had never used NAM but am soaking it all in with a user's perspective.

The quick honeymoon had me hooked and I've since downloaded a metric ton(ne) of EVH 50W captures, most of them stinkers and a few of them sound really good. I decided to see which ones get close enough to my 50W Stealth and so far I have been let down by the I/O gain inconsistencies and the lack of tonestack details. I get closer faster with amp models in Helix Native.

It's all in good fun though, but I'd still like to get a good capture of my amp at my favorite settings.

Here's a Pic of my entertainment today:

Helix Floor acting as interface and routing tool, sending my dry guitar signal into Reaper for NAM, and sending that Nam'med signal back through Helix, TC BAM200, and into one speaker of my 2x12. Helix is also taking my dry signal and sending it into the 50W Stealth and into the other speaker of the 2x12. Using a switch on the Helix to switch between speakers.

 

[Los-D]

down by the I/O gain inconsistencies

Yeah, that’s the drawback, and it is still in wild west stage. That said, @Slammin Mofo , @MirrorProfiles, @2dor have really good stuff.

(Have you tried Tonocracy while you are at it by any chance?)

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Yeah, that’s the drawback, and it is still in wild west stage. That said, @Slammin Mofo , @MirrorProfiles, @2dor have really good stuff.

(Have you tried Tonocracy while you are at it by any chance?)

I found a good comparable sound from tweaked captures from obi-juan on Tone Hunt, haven't played with much else yet because I had only wanted to match the amp I have on hand.

I have not tried Tonocracy recently. I did try to install it on my older machine when it came out and it wouldn't work but if I get the itch I might try again.

 

[Sedaxel]

I tried both, the Melo Audio (there is a rebranded model in uncle Thomm, named MP500 or something like that) and the Xtone Pro.

Didn´t like any of them.

The Melo was limited in the MIDI CC implementation (you can´t define the value of a CC number). Moreover, the audio convertion is bad. When I recorded a take and watched its wave in a DAW, it was offset with respect to zero axis. And the peaks appeared to be much less defined than the same kind of recording through my EVO4. Besides, the built in analog boost of the input was noisy... it worsened considerably the input signa, it was basicly unusable. I think this device is just garbage, sorry.

And the Xtone Pro... I found it also very limited in the MIDI implementation. I don´t remember too well what was the problem. If I recall, I think it was that you couldn´t choose which CC to send or something like that (sorry, don´t have a fresh idea about it)... like if it was intended for using the MIDI learn funtion in the plugins. Another BIG issue is that the input was NOISY if I used a mic. I had to put in the middle a little 1:1 isolator to get rid of the noise. And finally... the guitar input had no gain regulation, no knob or whatever. Even when you can use the "new trend" of using minimum gain input for correct use of guitar plugins, it´s not a bad thing to have some kind of regulation. Then, taking into account the bad quality of the AD converters in the Melo Audio, I kind of have little trust in these chinese interfaces converter quality. If We are so enthusiastic about the accuracy and quality of NAM, it´s a real waste to use bad quallity interfaces, really.

The quality of these devices, in terms of AD/DA is not reviewed anywherre. We only have the marketing word of both companies (high quality 192kHz 24bit audio!!!)... but honestly, I think that, if someone made a serious review with measurements and so, We´d discover that all tha giltters is not gold.

They also claim "ultra low latency!!!"... I didn´t notice less latency with than a Zoom U-44 which I had at the time, either. I don´t remember if I made some RTL measure in that moment, but wasn´t specially impressed by that.

Took a look at my RTL utility log file, and found the measurement of the Melo Audio Tone Shifter Mega (AKA Harley Benton MP500).

48kHz, 32 samples: 8.2 ms.

So... a quite bad latency number. That´s what BS marketing makes to us... it makes us believe that the device is "ultra low latency", when actually being worse than most interfaces. The recording quality was terrible, too.

For instance, the Mooer GE250 (which isn´t even a dedicated audio interface, but a multieffects unit), at 44.1kHz-32 samples, throws 8.7 ms (almost the same, even being at 44.1 kHz).

Zoom AMS-22, 48kHz-32 samples, 6.5 ms.

Audient EVO4, 48kHz-32 samples, 4.9 ms.

This only reinforces my argument about those chinese interfaces. Better stay away from them.

EDITED: corrected RTL numbers, they were wrong (Iwrote them from memory and were a little different).

Just for the sake of curiosity, Mooer GE300 Lite has worse RTL than GE250. It scores 11.9 ms (44.1 kHz, 32 samples). That´s 3.2 ms more!

 

[Mongillo19]

@northern_fox

Any other updates on the NAM player??

 

[northern_fox]

@northern_fox

Any other updates on the NAM player??

Done several gigs with it and my KSR PA50! Sounds and feels great live! I don't use much in the way of fx so I'm able to keep it pretty simple. NAM player via XLR to house, and 1/4 -> mxr -> power amp.