NAM: Neural Amp Modeler

This Peavey 6505 sounds really good. I like all the captures by Arlington Audio. There aren't many, but everything uploaded by him sounds extremely authentic to my ears, like his JCM800 Zakk Wylde Signature Edition. Tim R also makes great captures, brianbuckles, cosmiccrucible, unnus, PetrC, Alexander Ribakov, and the list goes on. Lots of great sounding amps to play with.
 
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Hi all !

Thought I'd post this here rather than "the other place" where any NAM comments / criticisms are considered the work of the devil ;) :)

As a professed Tonex Fan, I've been messing [again] with NAM - and 0.7.2 and now 0.7.3 - playing back some Capture's, not doing any of my own.

Still cant hear or feel the " %3.3 Null test improvement at a -39.5db noise floor " ..... :)

Two things still jump out at me ..... I'm not at all a fan of the Gain / Tone EQ/Stack in NAM .. I don't know why but its just nowhere near as musical and "natural" as the Tonex ... to me.

Secondly .... all the good [and sh%t) NAM capture's I've tried - over 100 now - *seem to my ears* to have an excess of ultra-high end *almost* fizz / sizzle / crackle .... almost like pretty bad aliasing .... which require some very healthy High Cuts, but then the core tone is affected ... I thought I was just hearing this, but then I just now saw Leo Gibsons Latest video and he *seems* to have confirmed the very high Aliasing in NAM - see video here.

Leo Gibson Aliasing Video

PS: Sorry I cant figure out how to embed a video :(

So my questions are two fold:-

=> why doesn't Tonex exhibit this same ultra high end "rubbish" / "stuff" behaviour ?
=> is there an issue / extra complexity / problem in applying oversampling in an AI environment ?

I've no idea of the answers to either, but I'm sure the much smarter minds here will :)

Thanks,
Ben
Fwiw I feel the same way
 
I don't give a flying f about "lab tests". NAM gives me the most pleasing high end I've ever experienced in a digital form, and that is all that matters to me, and those pinched harmonics, oh boy, they just keep popping out effortlessly, even through headphones.
 
I like Leo, but he measures aliasing like a noob, running a sweep at 0dBFS is stupid.

This thread has all the info he needs to have a meaningful aliasing test.
 
https://tonehunt.org/MirrorProfiles/7f77e0d2-0259-45ba-88ee-2f6b08e2cc68

From the rare Marshall JMP 2150. These were made in limited numbers in the late 70's.

Its a sort of cross between a 100W Superlead and a 2203, but with its own quirks. PPIMV from factory, plate driven EQ, 10k cold clipper like a 2203.

Gets pretty fat and gainy, still undeniably classic Marshall sounding. Captured with channels jumped.

Most accurate response if you set your input headroom for 12dBu.
I just finished playing with this capture of yours. Sounds great boosted with Boss SD-1, like a proper Marshall amp should sound. BUT, I almost blew my eardrums the first time i fired it up, despite having the input gain on my interface set to 0. Only after I set the output knob to -16 in NAM, did everything seem balanced.
 
@MirrorProfiles hey, I was hoping you could try to figure out what went wrong with the capture I tested, which I quoted in my previous post. I'm genuinely curious. Going by your recommendation, I set the input gain knob to zero on my audio interface, I had the input and output knobs at default settings in NAM. This didn't work as expected, like I said, the sound coming out of my headphones was so loud, it really scared me. If the profile is properly calibrated, it shouldn't be necessary for me to lower the output to -16 in NAM, for the capture to sound as intended(volume-wise). Or am I missing something?
 
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the calibration we’re talking about only affects input level. NAM features some normalisation features for the output, maybe that setting had changed for you? Either way, the output is just a clean output level so the tone won’t be affected
 
I was actually referring to the volume of your capture, not the tone. Your capture sounded loud as hell at default settings, compared to most of the other captures I've tried so far. Turning the output knob to -16, solved the issue easily, and it sounds really great that way (again, I'm referring to volume here, or perceived loudness, or whatever you wanna call it).
 
I was actually referring to the volume of your capture, not the tone. Your capture sounded loud as hell at default settings, compared to most of the other captures I've tried so far. Turning the output knob to -16, solved the issue easily, and it sounds really great that way (again, I'm referring to volume here, or perceived loudness, or whatever you wanna call it).
Output should be in line with any others, I normalised before training (helps to lower ESR). and the plugin has a normalise feature which should handle volumes being consistent. If it was abnormally loud beyond that, then I have no idea - for me it’s like any other NAM model i’ve tried or made 🤷‍♂️
 
@Frederico_Gomes I'm using a 3rd party IR loader. It's the same IR I use for many other captures, so I'm pretty sure excessive gain of my IR is not an issue here. It doesn't even matter all that much, anyway. I was just curious, to be honest.
 
I don't give a flying f about "lab tests". NAM gives me the most pleasing high end I've ever experienced in a digital form, and that is all that matters to me, and those pinched harmonics, oh boy, they just keep popping out effortlessly, even through headphones.

Hey StratSoundFan !

That's %100 cool - whatever you find pleasing is perfect :) The issue, i.m.h.o remains in that real Tube amps don't have this issue and all digital products do - to varying degree's - Fractal and L6 hardware boxes are two that come to mind where they have implemented oversampling "fixes" to essentially remove this inaccuracy. To me, it is clearly audible in NAM but not in Tonex ... which I suspect means (i) IK have implemented oversampling in Tonex and (ii) is the reason why many/most of the Tonex vs NAM comparisons comment on the "extra high end content in NAM". But all that matters is if it sounds good to you, then all is good :)

All the best,
Ben

I like Leo, but he measures aliasing like a noob, running a sweep at 0dBFS is stupid.

This thread has all the info he needs to have a meaningful aliasing test.

Hey James !

You may well be right James, but the key takeaway for me was that the test was consistent across all 3 x Plugins .... Mercurial, NDSP and NAM ... so whilst his method may not be "ideal", the results still, i.m.h.o., still carry a really good degree of credibility.

All the best,
Ben
 
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https://tonehunt.org/MirrorProfiles/7f77e0d2-0259-45ba-88ee-2f6b08e2cc68

From the rare Marshall JMP 2150. These were made in limited numbers in the late 70's.

Its a sort of cross between a 100W Superlead and a 2203, but with its own quirks. PPIMV from factory, plate driven EQ, 10k cold clipper like a 2203.

Gets pretty fat and gainy, still undeniably classic Marshall sounding. Captured with channels jumped.

Most accurate response if you set your input headroom for 12dBu.
This thing sounds awesome!!! Thank you! I have never run across one of these in the wild.
 
Nope, Tonex aliasing is as bad as NAM (I have measurements I can share later). IK multimedia probably just added a low pass filter to tame it on the highs, but that also reduces hi frequency content that should be there.
I got called out at the other place for saying the first TomeX examples lacked top end vs the real examples.

I think the low end can also vary a bit from the original, both with ToneX and NAM. The extreme ends of the spectrum seem the hardest to get 100% right, although they’re extremely close and it doesn’t really matter. It’s just not always 100% there yet. But I find the top end of NAM much more accurate than ToneX, as I also suspect ToneX is using a filter.
 
I just noticed in Leo's video that the NAM capture is of a full rig with an SM57, of course you will hear plenty of audible aliasing even with medium gain tones without any filtering/IR after the capture.
Combine that with an unrealistic 10kHz-20kHz 0dBFS sweep and you have aliasing disaster, not a meaningful test.

Of course, it is not recommended to capture a full rig with cab+mic, mainly for versatility so you can use IRs later, but also for aliasing reasons.
 
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Nope, Tonex aliasing is as bad as NAM (I have measurements I can share later). IK multimedia probably just added a low pass filter to tame it on the highs, but that also reduces hi frequency content that should be there.

Hmmmmm ....

When using / playing 0.7.3 NAM, my IR Loader has a Low Pass Filter with Adjustable Slopes at -6db, -12db, -24db, -36db and -48db.

Regardless of the EQ point I choose and the Slope I used, it was always either too much or too little..

The Tonex Top End just doesn't have this "harshness" ... to my ears ... I've not done any "graphs" / "tests" though :) ... yet it still sounds totally open and airy in its high end as you would expect it to.

It would have to be an awfully well-fine-tuned-and-granular Low Cut Filter to "mask" the Tonex Aliasing and at the same time not affect the natural higher end overtones and frequencies.

And even if it *did* have this, the Tonex Aliasing results *should* on paper be better than NAM .... but you're saying they aren't (?)

I find it inconceivable that IK would make and release Tonex with no or sh%t oversampling (?) ..... or is oversampling very difficult to implement in AI audio algorithms (?) <- I have no idea on this question.

Ben

I just noticed in Leo's video that the NAM capture is of a full rig with an SM57, of course you will hear plenty of audible aliasing even with medium gain tones without any filtering/IR after the capture.
Combine that with an unrealistic 10kHz-20kHz 0dBFS sweep and you have aliasing disaster, not a meaningful test.

Of course, it is not recommended to capture a full rig with cab+mic, mainly for versatility so you can use IRs later, but also for aliasing reasons.

If he used an SM57 Based IR [-or- mic'ed a real cab with a 57 - not likely ] ... surely the addition of a "Cab IR" will actually mask / reduce the produced / audible / measurable aliasing (?)

Ben
 
Ok, I opened the project with my measurements that I did some time ago and I have to correct myself: Tonex is actually worse than NAM regarding aliasing. I also re-did the measurements just to be sure I didn't screw up anything the first time, but same results.

All three are the same exact amp with gain and level matched (Fractal's VH4 captured with both NAM and Tonex)

FM9
fm9.jpg


NAM
nam.jpg


Tonex
tonex.jpg


All three are made with a 10 seconds linear sine sweep ranging from 0 to 24 kHz at -1dBFS (@James Freeman I know this is not a realistic level but I chose to do so just to make the lines more visible in the graphs).

How to interpret these graphs:

X axis is time in seconds, Y axis is frequency.
Brighter and yellow colors represent higher levels, faint and blue represent lower levels. The range goes from 0dBFS to -100 dBFS, so dark blue lines are not hearable in practical use.
The fundamental frequency (aka the original sweep) is the brighter yellow line which goes from the bottom-left corner to the upper-right corner or, in other words, from 0 to 24kHz in 10 seconds.
Other lines starting from the bottom-left corner are harmonics generated by the distortion of the amp.
Lines that don't start from the bottom-left corner are aliasing or... other things (we'll see later what these could be)

Let's analyse them one by one:

FM9
This is the example of how oversampling should be done properly. All the aliasing is blue coloured, so much more low in level than fundamental and harmonics. All the aliased lines are almost vertical, that means that only those relative to the highest harmonics are visible, hence having a level higher than -100 dBFS.
Also, you don't see the point where these gets reflected back at the top of the graph cuz that happens at a much higher frequency than 24 kHz, and also cuz there's a properly implemented anti-aliasing low-pass filter, this last reason is why you see all lines getting darker towards the top of the graph.

NAM
This instead can be taken as an example of how aliasing happens: the fundamental and all the harmonics get reflected exactly at 24 kHz (half the 48 kHz sample-rate) and then reflected again when they reach 0 Hz, and again and again till they reach the upper-right or lower-right corner.
All as expected here since we already knew that NAM doesn't have oversampling nor any kind of filtering.

Tonex
Compared to NAM the graph looks more chaotic. First of all we see a big yellow "V" in the middle of the graph, that's an alias relative to the 3rd harmonic which for some reason is quite high in level, maybe even higher than the harmonic itself which is quite strange, and the same happens for some other harmonics too. I don't know the reason for this but that's really bad for sure.
Then we can see the main lines getting darker at 16k, that's a low-pass filter.
But the strangest thing is that all lines have some copies above and below. These are basically the same as the fundamental and harmonics but shifted in time (both backward and forward) and at a lower level.
At first sight I didn't know what was happening and this is why I repeated the measurements today. But after thinking a bit about it I suspect this might be due to some linear phase processing inside the plugin causing (pre and post) ringing. This is just my assumption though, it could even be some by-product of the neural network used by Tonex. Anyway, if you have a more convincing explanation let me know.

Here are some facts guys, draw your own conclusions.

PS: another interesting thing I just noticed: there's also a yellow horizontal line at the bottom of all three graphs. I suppose this is DC offset since the amp generates even harmonics and therefor it has asymmetrical clipping.
PPS: or it might just be the 50-60 Hz ghost note usually called "hum" 😅
 
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