Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[BenIfin]

Augora models may feel and sound better but they're less accurate ..... but now I think L6 is doing something very different or wrong when measuring/modelling amps with the Augora engine. I hope this will somehow get noticed and resolved along the way.

Got no issue with personal preference and / or if to you HX Amps are better than Agoura ... all good.

However ..... on what factual basis are you objectively saying Agoura is "less accurate" [presumably than HX] (?)

The only people on the planet who could possibly know this are the L6 Techs doing the Agoura Modleing and A/B comparing it to the actual Amp in L6's hands that they are "Agoua'fying"

(?)

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The only people on the planet who could possibly know this are the L6 Techs doing the Agoura Modleing and A/B comparing it to the actual Amp in L6's hands that they are "Agoua'fying"

(?)

Several of Line 6's amps have been modelled before, and then again in Agoura. If you are able to make the old model match your own amp closely, and the new model can't, then it suggests that either the old amp model was wrong (and its just down to luck that it sounds like a users real amp), or the new modelling has something wrong.

Or there is an explanation as to why Agoura models sound so different to legacy that users aren't aware of yet.

 

[Sascha Franck]

We're always left with our ears.

/Van Gogh has entered the chat

 

[dbfretz]

The idea that somehow Line 6 is doing something wrong with Agoura is hilarious.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The idea that somehow Line 6 is doing something wrong with Agoura is hilarious.

You’re right. Turns out there are absolutely tons of examples of it sounding like the amps it’s modelling, just like legacy Helix models have had for years……

There are so many examples of

Real amp / HX Legacy / Agoura

where Agoura is the odd one out. If that doesn’t seem strange to you; then no wonder you find it “hilarious”

 

[Richard_G]

Amalgam have said they would but I've not had any news on any of my packs being updated yet. Anyone else?

I have about a dozen of his packs and as far as I’m aware not a single one of them has been retrained to V2 yet. Not real pleased about how that has gone and have since stopped purchasing from them.

Amalgam/Karlis is currently aiming for April 10th as the first re-release date (a free update from Tonex v1 to v2 for those who bought the v1 release directly from the Amalgam site).

 

[molul]

There are so many examples of

Real amp / HX Legacy / Agoura

where Agoura is the odd one out. If that doesn’t seem strange to you; then no wonder you find it “hilarious”

I'm curious about this. Is there any video I could check?

 

[BenIfin]

Several of Line 6's amps have been modelled before, and then again in Agoura. If you are able to make the old model match your own amp closely, and the new model can't, then it suggests that either the old amp model was wrong (and its just down to luck that it sounds like a users real amp), or the new modelling has something wrong.

Or there is an explanation as to why Agoura models sound so different to legacy that users aren't aware of yet.

I thought (?) this was a possible issue for some of the high gain Amps as opposed to the Clean-Low-EOB-Mid-Gain Fenders / Vox's / Matchless / Marhshalls etc.....(?)

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I thought (?) this was a possible issue for some of the high gain Amps as opposed to the Clean-Low-EOB-Mid-Gain Fenders / Vox's / Matchless / Marhshalls etc.....(?)

Im honestly not sure which amps aren’t affected, but it’s easy to compare the old model to new to see how drastic the differences are. And I’m not in a position to say that something is definitely off - but the more comparisons I hear the more sure of it I am. I’m not sure there has been any examples that have allayed my beliefs - every time they seem to sound different. That makes me think it’s not just a bug in one or two models, but something that is affecting things across the board.

The closest analogy I can think of is going from a good 2MP camera to a 20MP camera. You’d know what aspects should be similar to the previous one, but if the whole image is skewed in a totally different way then it suggests something is up. And if other cameras all produce an image more like the 2MP camera then it points to something being askew in the 20MP one. The results can be simultaneously better while being incorrect.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

it’s easy to compare the old model to new to see how drastic the differences are.

But if the old models weren't accurate to the original amp, why would we compare them to the new?

I'm not dismissing what you're saying. I just want to know what it is that's "off" in Agoura.

 

[AmuckRunner]

Regarding the discussion about null tests as a measure of accuracy of cloning.....

Null test is neither completely meaningless nor the ultimate measurement. It is simply one of many possible performance metrics. In my opinion, it is also a valid scientific measurement method. For example 'sum of error' is very standard way of measuring in signal processing field, I guess.

In a very specific case, where a clone reproduces the reference gear with 100% accuracy, the null test result would be negative infinity. There is no debate there.

If a clone is not infinitely perfect, then there are several possible outcomes. For example, clone X may reproduce transients better but be less accurate in the overall frequency spectrum. Clone Y may be better at mimicking note decay and cleaning things up. Clone Z may not be the best in either transients or spectrum, but may offer the best overall balance.

To those who argue that a single number cannot summarize the complex behavior of a cloned amp, I would ask: what is the alternative? Endless debate about what sounds better? And if you already have a well-established personal taste, then you probably do not need advice or guidance from others in the first place.

To follow the car analogy, imagine you are talking to two car dealers.

Car dealer 1:
“This car feels good, sounds nice, goes fast, and is fuel-efficient. That’s what I think, and other people agree.”

Car dealer 2:
“A number cannot represent the whole driving experience, but this car does 0–100 km/h in 5.3 seconds and gets XYZ MPG.”

Personally, I would choose dealer 2. Dealer 1 is not necessarily bad, but only if I can test the all available cars myself which takes much time and effort.

Coming back to modeling or cloning, a null test result cannot represent every aspect of the sound, but it can still be a useful guideline.

 

[DanRad]

I don't know about everybody else, but 1.3 seems to have solved my wi-fi disconnect issues. Just for fun, I left the Stadium on overnight — and the editor is still connected.

 

[12tone]

Funny - Mine can't stay connected for more than 10 minutes on 1.3 and latest Stadium app version. Don't know why that is.

 

[BenIfin]

But if the old models weren't accurate to the original amp, why would we compare them to the new?

I'm not dismissing what you're saying. I just want to know what it is that's "off" in Agoura.

Not being a Stadium owner .... and wont be until Stadium Native is released ... this intrigues me too

Proxy aside ..... the Agoura Amp demo's Ive heard via Y/T sound fantastic ?

I will add though that I am not a high gain user - as "high gain" as I get is an "AC-DC " tone which is actually a relatively clean-overdriven tone.

But genuinely interested to know.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

But if the old models weren't accurate to the original amp, why would we compare them to the new?

I'm not dismissing what you're saying. I just want to know what it is that's "off" in Agoura.

Why would the old models suddenly be deemed inaccurate?

There are countless examples of Helix legacy models comparing very favourably when compared to real amps, and also to other models.

I’ve compared many real amps to Helix and the only time I’ve had issues matching the tones closely was when things weren’t stock, like the 2203 bright cap. It’s a testament to how good the modelling is that things like that reveal themselves.

I haven’t seen or heard anything so far that suggests Agoura narrows the gap. The whole reason I’m so curious about it is I can’t work out where these noticeable tonal shifts are coming from, especially considering the modelling standard we’ve been used to for 10 years.

 

[Orvillain]

In a very specific case, where a clone reproduces the reference gear with 100% accuracy, the null test result would be negative infinity. There is no debate there.

Yes there is.

Even a null test that is not -inf could still be 100% accurate. Because the noise floor would nearly always disrupt the comparison in any real world test; you'd never get -inf unless the conditions were strictly controlled, and even then, probably not.

You can take two recordings of a real world amplifier, with the same DI signal running through it every single time, and those recordings will not null to -inf. But it doesn't mean the amp somehow changed; it didn't.

A deep null is useful. It tells you something. But it does not tell you everything, and it certainly does not prove equivalence or non-equivalence on its own.

To those who argue that a single number cannot summarize the complex behavior of a cloned amp, I would ask: what is the alternative?

You measure across multiple domains:

• Time domain response (transients, envelope behaviour)
• Frequency response across level-dependent conditions
• Dynamic behaviour under different playing styles (not just static tones)
• Non-linear characteristics (harmonic generation, compression curves)
• Stability across input levels, impedance interactions, and edge cases
• Perceptual validation under realistic playing conditions

Because the real question is not “does it null” but rather "does it behave the same way, under all the conditions that matter?"

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Regarding the discussion about null tests as a measure of accuracy of cloning.....

Null test is neither completely meaningless nor the ultimate measurement. It is simply one of many possible performance metrics. In my opinion, it is also a valid scientific measurement method. For example 'sum of error' is very standard way of measuring in signal processing field, I guess.

In a very specific case, where a clone reproduces the reference gear with 100% accuracy, the null test result would be negative infinity. There is no debate there.

If a clone is not infinitely perfect, then there are several possible outcomes. For example, clone X may reproduce transients better but be less accurate in the overall frequency spectrum. Clone Y may be better at mimicking note decay and cleaning things up. Clone Z may not be the best in either transients or spectrum, but may offer the best overall balance.

To those who argue that a single number cannot summarize the complex behavior of a cloned amp, I would ask: what is the alternative? Endless debate about what sounds better? And if you already have a well-established personal taste, then you probably do not need advice or guidance from others in the first place.

To follow the car analogy, imagine you are talking to two car dealers.

Car dealer 1:
“This car feels good, sounds nice, goes fast, and is fuel-efficient. That’s what I think, and other people agree.”

Car dealer 2:
“A number cannot represent the whole driving experience, but this car does 0–100 km/h in 5.3 seconds and gets XYZ MPG.”

Personally, I would choose dealer 2. Dealer 1 is not necessarily bad, but only if I can test the all available cars myself which takes much time and effort.

Coming back to modeling or cloning, a null test result cannot represent every aspect of the sound, but it can still be a useful guideline.

But what about an all pass filter/phase shift that sounds identical but will null poorly?

I think listening is far superior as a metric, even if it takes more work. All numbers can do is back up what you already hear. And if they don’t back up what you hear, they’re discarded because what we hear is the one that matters. The numbers are just fluff.

 

[EOengineer]

I think listening is far superior as a metric, even if it takes more work.

Not sure about this one. I agree in the general sense that ears are an important ingredient, but they are also highly variable, and don’t always perceive in a consistent manner day to day.

For the types of comparisons we’re wanting there’s likely a mix of critical listening and measurements that can be combined to help us with the conversation. Null tests aren’t it but I wouldn’t want to abandon numbers if we can find a collection of measurements that are helpful in describing the behavior.

 

[Lysander]

Im honestly not sure which amps aren’t affected, but it’s easy to compare the old model to new to see how drastic the differences are.

Anecdotal, and i haven't shoot out all Agoura models yet, but the ones i have compared on my Stadium Floor sound very similar to good ole' HX - just more lively and dynamic.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Not sure about this one. I agree in the general sense that ears are an important ingredient, but they are also highly variable, and don’t always perceive in a consistent manner day to day.

For the types of comparisons we’re wanting there’s likely a mix of critical listening and measurements that can be combined to help us with the conversation. Null tests aren’t it but I wouldn’t want to abandon numbers if we can find a collection of measurements that are helpful in describing the behavior.

I mean it more in the sense that we have to hear it anyway to determine what any measurement means. Without actually listening, we can’t really garage how important or unimportant any measurement is.

Whatever is being tested, it always needs accompanying audio to back it up.