Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[ian_dissonance]

I think the general consensus has been the test results don’t matter if you can listen to the source and the clone back to back and decide for yourself. That doesn’t negate the idea that capturing/cloning/profiling is SUPPOSED to be as close to the source as possible, nor does it change that fact that something that arguably sounds noticeably different from the source can’t sound good of be fun to play. That just means it’s not (as) accurate. So far the only one of these technologies that consistently sounds different the source has been the Kemper (to my ear), even with V2. A couple of the original v2 A\B posts were even obvious on a cell phone speaker. I think one platform catches more flack because they “created” the space and haven’t tried to make any real moves since.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Using residual audio’s level in LUFS to rank the accuracy of different capture tech was never considered valid. People were criticising the sound of Kemper’s capturing with no need to bring up null tests - it’s easy enough to just listen to

 

[EOengineer]

Brb gonna try bribing Leo to upload silent null test files for his next comparison. Trolling has never been this easy.

 

[contrario]

The old and new models sound quite different with the new one being way more scooped. I want to say that the old model sounds more like the Proxy capture here - there's a kind of nasal/forward midrange thing on those, where the Agoura model sounds more scooped (and gainy and bassy) by comparison. The old Helix model definitely has some "legacy" characteristics in the gain that the Agoura model improves on (the character of the gain is nicer and more dynamic). No idea what accounts for the old and new models sound different in their voicing. Would love to know what these differences are down to.

Even after the bug fixes related to SIC and the introduction of Proxy with the 1.3 update, I think HX models still sound more accurate than Augora. Augora models may feel and sound better but they're less accurate.

At first I just thought the the difference between the real amp and Augora samples shared here might have been related to the mentioned bugs but now I think L6 is doing something very different or wrong when measuring/modelling amps with the Augora engine. I hope this will somehow get noticed and resolved along the way. Otherwise, I'm sticking with my HX Stomp/Native.

 

[EOengineer]

I think L6 is doing something very different or wrong when measuring/modelling amps with the Augora engine. I hope this will somehow get noticed and resolved along the way. Otherwise, I'm sticking with my HX Stomp/Native.

But it’s got squirrels in it!

 

[Chocol8]

If Null Tests are a good metric as vehemently defended in these forums by a butt ton of people,

Who? I think you are reading a different forum and confusing it with this one.

I don't own a stadium product yet and probably wont at peast until a stomp size version is released. My only current line6 product is an ancient Flextone II which is/was pretty crappy and hasn't been used in many years other than to hold dust and other crap off the floor. I have no loyalty to the brand other than I think they are good people and deserve fair treatment.

None of that has anything to do with why Leo's null tests are scientifically meaningless, effectively meaningless to most guitarists, and misleading. He is selling snake oil for clicks, and quite frankly I think he knows that and it is intentional, but maybe he is dumber than I think.

 

[Chocol8]

Provided that you're not a chemical engineer. Or drive trains.

Train engineers and sanitation engineers excluded, I would expect even a chemical engineer to have enough of a background in math, statistics and measurement to be able to read the things posted on various threads here and quickly come to the conclusion that Leo's "tests" have multiple serious flaws. Obviously that would require some level of interest in the topic and some effort to look into it, including suffering through a video or two.

 

[Hapless]

Train engineers and sanitation engineers excluded, I would expect even a chemical engineer to have enough of a background in math, statistics and measurement to be able to read the things posted on various threads here and quickly come to the conclusion that Leo's "tests" have multiple serious flaws. Obviously that would require some pevdl of interest in the topic and some effort to look into it, including suffering through a video or two.

I was a Combat Engineer in the Army.

 

[Chocol8]

I think the general consensus has been the test results don’t matter if you can listen to the source and the clone back to back and decide for yourself. That doesn’t negate the idea that capturing/cloning/profiling is SUPPOSED to be as close to the source as possible, nor does it change that fact that something that arguably sounds noticeably different from the source can’t sound good of be fun to play. That just means it’s not (as) accurate.

The null tests as done by Leo DO NOT measure accuracy of a capture/model/profile in a meaningful way. That is the problem and it is totally independent of the debate on the merits of accuracy or anything else.

To use a car analogy since people love them, its like he is parking cars in his garage and then based on how they fit, giving them a single score thats supposed to tell you how well they will perform going to by groceries, hauling 4 kids to soccer, hauling tools and lumber, and going around a race track. It makes no sense, but he sells it like it does.

 

[Chocol8]

I was a Combat Engineer in the Army.

Close enough.

 

[EOengineer]

I was a Combat Engineer in the Army.

 

[Hapless]

I said Army, not Marines.

 

[Lysander]

None of that has anything to do with why Leo's null tests are scientifically meaningless, effectively meaningless to most guitarists, and misleading. He is selling snake oil for clicks, and quite frankly I think he knows that and it is intentional, but maybe he is dumber than I think.

It wouldn't bother me one bit if it weren't for the fact he presents himself as an expert/scientist and, more often than not, and to put it bluntly, he has no fucking clue what he's talking about. Great player and a colorful personality, but keeps hitting the perfect mixture of ChatGPT and Dunning-Krueger.

But you know what? It works; people click on the thumbnail, and rank their profilers by LUFS. In that last video he mentioned Line 6 contacted him about having engineers walk him through their profiling tech (which is sad they felt compelled to), and how he declined because of professional integrity or something.

Would've been an incredible opportunity to learn a thing or two, but, alas...

 

[EOengineer]

If people are still accepting self declared experts on YouTube at face value we just have to accept some portion of the electorate is never going to learn that lesson.

Reality can often be disappointing.

 

[OneEng]

Who? I think you are reading a different forum and confusing it with this one.

I don't own a stadium product yet and probably wont at peast until a stomp size version is released. My only current line6 product is an ancient Flextone II which is/was pretty crappy and hasn't been used in many years other than to hold dust and other crap off the floor. I have no loyalty to the brand other than I think they are good people and deserve fair treatment.

None of that has anything to do with why Leo's null tests are scientifically meaningless, effectively meaningless to most guitarists, and misleading. He is selling snake oil for clicks, and quite frankly I think he knows that and it is intentional, but maybe he is dumber than I think.

I think Line 6 has been given fair treatment, and they deserve it. They have rolled out a really good product with a really good launch and controlled the message and expectations very well. Quite the opposite of Kemper MK2 and V2 profiling.

It seems like your beef is with Leo and his shoeless video. No matter how you look at this video, the difference was audible between Proxy and the real amp .... at least it was to my ears. I likely could have guessed that the NULL test would have been in the low -30's range.

To me, all these devices have sufficient accuracy as to not be a problem ..... especially once tweaked which pretty much anyone that uses them is going to do.

I also believe that Line 6 is getting a pass on this where Kemper didn't. All the spice is there, but hardly anyone is crying "Only -31 LUFS!", or "I can clearly hear the difference!". Again, I think its a crap way to pick a digital amp anyway. Been saying it for a long while.

Do you believe that Proxy is accurate? Do you believe accuracy matters? Can you hear the difference in Leo's recordings?

 

[Chocol8]

Do you believe that Proxy is accurate? Do you believe accuracy matters? Can you hear the difference in Leo's recordings?

I don't have a device to test Proxy so I don't know yet. Yes, I think accuracy of a capture tech is very important for some purposes and not all errors are equal. No, I can't hear a difference on a video I refuse to click on because I refuse to give that charlatan any more clicks. He is doinga huge disservice to the player community for personal gain, and I can't support that.

As for Kemper, I think they have been treated way more than fairly. Their negative reputation as of late has been well earned and 100% of their own doing.

 

[Orvillain]

I do actually think Line6 have been given a bit of a pass; but nothing to do with Proxy. Just in general, the amp modelling seems a bit off to me. And not enough people are talking about it. Difficult to quantify, and I've communicated my thoughts to the people involved, so I won't rehash it. But suffice to say... the idea that Kemper was hard done by is just a rewriting of history. They made their bed. Let them lie in it.

@OneEng, @Chocol8 asked you a question. He asked you "who" and you've not even answered it. You're such a ridiculously bad faith person.

 

[RiffDuck]

I was a Combat Engineer in the Army.

 

[Digital Igloo]

I think there is a big difference between a product being used for something in the 90's, and it being "good" by today's modeler / capture standards.... or even a tube amp rig live. Recording vs. Live is another distinction.

Oh man, at the risk of digging a super deep rabbit hole, it all depends on your definition of "good." If good means "Hey, it's perfect for boomer bends in my circa-'00 dad rock garage band full of Dumble sycophant amp builders," yeah, POD probably wouldn't have passed muster.

If good means "this sounds cool as hell I'm gonna record an genre-defying record that sells millions of copies," then yeah, along with a lot of other gear from that time period, it did, repeatedly.

But I get ya'. To this day, if I see a Reddit image with B£#®!n&£® gear in it, I downvote it.

So in the absence of the NULL test, are we again left with our ears? God forbid .

We're always left with our ears.

This is the age of misinformation. Authentication is no longer a prerequisite. People will believe anything if the same misinformation is populated everywhere. IMO Leo's video will hurt Stadium sales and the only viable recourse is to add NAM. It ends all comparison bullshit.

I'm not suggesting we will or will not eventually support NAM profiles, but I can with 100% confidence say that if we do, giving up the fight against misinformation won't have anything to do with it.

Stated another way: "I have no clue how any of this works, but one guy on some YouTube channel is saying this, which freaks me out because I'm allergic to context, nuance, or actual reading, so Line 6 better change all their Stadium development plans to assuage my willful ignorance!"

To use a car analogy since people love them, its like he is parking cars in his garage and then based on how they fit, giving them a single score thats supposed to tell you how well they will perform going to by groceries, hauling 4 kids to soccer, hauling tools and lumber, and going around a race track.

Oooooh, I like this one a lot. Mind if I steal it?

 

[Orvillain]

If good means "this sounds cool as hell I'm gonna record an genre-defying record that sells millions of copies," then yeah, along with a lot of other gear from that time period, it did, repeatedly.