Line 6 Helix Stadium Pre-Launch Discussion

[Chocol8]

A well recorder IR will sound indistinguishable from a mic-ed cabinet, and nothing more.

They don’t sound indistinguishable. Most current ones have partial reflections, not full, and the IR technology cannot capture and reproduce non-linearities.

The “and nothing more” is yet another opportunity for someone to take speaker emulation further than anything on the market today. There is “more” to be had.

 

[Chocol8]

The laws of physics say otherwise. The sound of a cabinet is more than just the speaker, and to play an IR back will require the use of another, usually unknown speaker on top of that.

The way sound radiates out of its enclosure is going to vary loads based on construction and where it’s positioned, let alone plenty of other smaller factors.

The laws of physics don’t require that you use only IR’s for speaker emulation or that your emulation has to be played back through whatever unknown cheap third party device the customer buys.

You guys are incredibly short sighted here. Kinds like the people who for decades said SS/digital will never sound as good as tubes because…

 

[molul]

They don’t sound indistinguishable. Most current ones have partial reflections, not full, and the IR technology cannot capture and reproduce non-linearities.

The “and nothing more” is yet another opportunity for someone to take speaker emulation further than anything on the market today. There is “more” to be had.

The only true revolution in emulation would soon be being able to fully emulate that sought after "amp in the room" thing.

I don't know if it's still something that should be attempted, though. I've read people saying it's just impossible, and yet other people say "The Fender FR12 and X modeler really delivers that amp in the room feeling".

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The laws of physics don’t require that you use only IR’s for speaker emulation or that your emulation has to be played back through whatever unknown cheap third party device the customer buys.

You guys are incredibly short sighted here. Kinds like the people who for decades said SS/digital will never sound as good as tubes because…

No entirely sure what you’re getting at with regard to speaker modelling. There will always be the issue of the playback device being different to that of what is being modelled, and you can’t really “magic” the sound of a 1x12 open back or closed back 4x12 to a different speaker whether it’s using IR’s or any other method.

Most current ones have partial reflections, not full

Not sure what you mean here either. An IR will reproduce the reflections it captures.

 

[Lysander]

You guys are incredibly short sighted here. Kinds like the people who for decades said SS/digital will never sound as good as tubes because…

Look, none of this is unknown or black magic. Dynamic convolution is hardly a new concept; the reason you don't ever see it applied to speaker simulation is that it introduces a lot of limitations (f.ex. you cannot parametrize) and... there're no real gains to be had. If you want to accurately model a signal going through a speaker+cab, a well recorded IR will already sound pretty much the exact same as the real thing.

Also, most dynamic changes on a speaker don't affect the output per se, but things like input impedance. This is commonly accounted for with speaker impedance emulation (a.k.a. SIC modeling).

The only true revolution in emulation would soon be being able to fully emulate that sought after "amp in the room" thing.

If you want "amp in a room", you need an amp in a room. A FR-12 will never sound like a 4x12", but it will absolutely fool you into believing you're playing a Fender combo with the right combination of model + IR. I know, because it fools me

Anyway, this topic really deserves its own thread if you guys wanna elaborate.

 

[ian_dissonance]

The laws of physics don’t require that you use only IR’s for speaker emulation or that your emulation has to be played back through whatever unknown cheap third party device the customer buys.

You guys are incredibly short sighted here. Kinds like the people who for decades said SS/digital will never sound as good as tubes because…

So if you have to control the speaker and the emulation (a la PowerCab or Kemper Kone) you’re more or less back to an amp/speaker, and again no matter how good a speaker emulation gets, one driver in a box won’t sound like four in a bigger box. Add to that that people are going to judge it based on some personal experience of a particular speaker in a particular cab in a particular space, and matching an imaginary expectation is a fool’s errand. There’s plenty of room for improvement, but IRs aren’t really a weak point unless you want a cab in the room. Working with audio the last thing I want to deal with is some guitar players “ideal” cab sound that captures a 4x12 from behind 10’ and 3’ off-axis with ears that don’t hear anything over 6khz, lol.

 

[Chocol8]

My entire point was and remains that speaker emulation is an area where there is still room for improvement. I know a lot of people love to be dismissive about that, and don’t care or actively don’t want anything better.

We had people making the same arguments about amp modeling, and yet here we are with it still improving.

 

[Digital Igloo]

A few of the people at the anniversary who got a chance to try one out had positive comments on that aspect, but of course their experience may not be mine, and human nature is generally biased towards not crapping on people that have showed you kindness.

There's a lot of truth to this. Can't remember how many times I've said "Seriously, please, BE BRUTAL with us. Don't spare our feelings. We want this as good as it can be" since beta started. We need an army of @James Freeman s.

 

[Dez]

There's a lot of truth to this. Can't remember how many times I've said "Seriously, please, BE BRUTAL with us. Don't spare our feelings. We want this as good as it can be" since beta started. We need an army of @James Freeman s.

Y'all got any need for beta testers?

 

[GTR37]

There's a lot of truth to this. Can't remember how many times I've said "Seriously, please, BE BRUTAL with us. Don't spare our feelings. We want this as good as it can be" since beta started. We need an army of @James Freeman s.

You can never have enough James Freeman

 

[ian_dissonance]

I sign up every time the opportunity arises. I’m guessing they see my name and go “oh it’s the guy who just wants mathcore noises and plays in double drop fuck”.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

There's a lot of truth to this. Can't remember how many times I've said "Seriously, please, BE BRUTAL with us. Don't spare our feelings. We want this as good as it can be" since beta started. We need an army of @James Freeman s.

You want brutal? I give you brutal.

1. The USB roundtrip latency of the current generation of Helix/HX devices absolutely stinks. If you really want the future generation of Line 6 devices to be the centerpiece of people's (home) studios, you have to provide decent low latency drivers.
2. Erm...

sorry, I don't have any more brutality to offer.

 

[ian_dissonance]

T

You want brutal? I give you brutal.

1. The USB roundtrip latency of the current generation of Helix/HX devices absolutely stinks. If you really want the future generation of Line 6 devices to be the centerpiece of people's (home) studios, you have to provide decent low latency drivers.
2. Erm...

sorry, I don't have any more brutality to offer.

Thats a big one though. It’d be nice the the USB audio didn’t feel like a bonus feature.

 

[EOengineer]

Just some thoughts as I revisit Helix Native (as a sanity check if I really want the Stadium).

The newer models are quite good and imo mostly comparable to fractal counterparts. I do find the fractal models still have a weight or depth to them that still just makes it more fun to play.

Some amps like the MKIV are just so different. To me, the Helix Mark IV sounds bad and nothing like the IV on the FAS or how I recall my mark IV sounding. But then again, the helix ENGL Fireball model is absolutely killer. It just seems very hit or miss.

The reverbs in fractal land are noticably better along with the dynacabs. I haven't really jived with the cabs in Helix and often just opt for an IR.

Again, this is on Native so you have to consider input gain.

All in all, I will need to do some more digging. I really hope they release Augora clips before launch or at least an A/B from some YTers. Of course there is always the return window but alas.

The Mark IV lead channel specifically is just…wrong. Not because L6 goofed the modeling, but because they modeled the amp in a configuration that is least reminiscent of the classic mark lead tone we pursue. There’s a pull shift they didn’t engage that would typically add bite and aggression.

This is a prominent reason some of us are hoping they have some folks on staff now that are a bit more up to speed on how to use these amps.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

This is a prominent reason some of us are hoping they have some folks on staff now that are a bit more up to speed on how to use these amps.

Hopefully the new platform means they won’t have to jettison certain features and channels from amps. Mark’s are an amp where it’s really about the whole experience, I pretty much use every push/pull and tinker with every control on my Mark III.

I’m in the minority but I don’t mind the Helix IV too much, at least for what it is. I can get tones I like from it, but it just doesn’t quite feel like a full IV experience (like *sigh* amplitube does).

 

[EOengineer]

Hopefully the new platform means they won’t have to jettison certain features and channels from amps. Mark’s are an amp where it’s really about the whole experience, I pretty much use every push/pull and tinker with every control on my Mark III.

I’m in the minority but I don’t mind the Helix IV too much, at least for what it is. I can get tones I like from it, but it just doesn’t quite feel like a full IV experience (like *sigh* amplitube does).

I’m with you. Give me a simpler Mark (IIC+ or III) with all the options.

Also - I don’t mean to suggest that the Mark IV sounds bad. It doesn’t, it just doesn’t do the Mark lead tone I prefer, but I’m not alone.

 

[AZG]

It was a total misrepresentation of reality and truth simply to F.U.D the interest in the Stadium. Let's not try and pretend it was anything else. And all for something that is almost certainly X years away.

It was a classic passive/aggressive post that Cliff hasn't resorted to for a long time.

It was and is not a good look.

I disagree. It was posted on his own company forum and he was just letting his customers know Fractal is not dead yet and is actively working on new and better stuff. Customers should be happy for the competition.

Now, I’m not sure more DSP power is top of my wish list for next generation Axe-Fx devices, UI update gets my top slot, I also won’t say no to more DSP. Especially at the low end like FM3.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

Another feature I was pleased to hear about is the Wi-Fi connection to the editor software. With all the Helix/HX devices I've had so far, I've had pretty nasty USB ground loop problems that could only be solved with a third-party isolator (iFi iDefender) that I had to buy separately. Apart from that, all the USB ports on my iMac are already occupied, so I'm happy about any device that can be connected wirelessly.

Sounds kind of contradictory that I pointed out the importance of fast USB drivers a few posts ago, doesn't it? I am talking about different use cases, though.

 

[Dez]

Another feature I was pleased to hear about is the Wi-Fi connection to the editor software. With all the Helix/HX devices I've had so far, I've had pretty nasty USB ground loop problems that could only be solved with a third-party isolator (iFi iDefender) that I had to buy separately. Apart from that, all the USB ports on my iMac are already occupied, so I'm happy about any device that can be connected wirelessly.

I'm hoping it's available for macOS and mobile if it can connect with WiFi - but maybe it's because I work on a Mac - so an iPad is like a relief lol

 

[luckymethod]

Why would you need any new amps that run only on the new DSP? I’m guessing quality.

Reverb takes up 3/4’s of the ToneMaster Amps available processing. The 2% reference is just hyperbole based on your opinion.

Why would Line 6 devote all that extra DSP to new amps that only 2% that a lot of people only pretend to hear anyways? That’s using your logic, not mine.

Again, folks seem to be arguing against improved effects quality. It’s kinda funny seeing the contortions needed to maintain that stance.

I think everyone with ears can hear the limits of available processing power in the current line6 amp sims. I have both an hx stomp and an axe 3 and the models are night and day.