Line 6 Helix Stadium Pre-Launch Discussion

[Orvillain]

Fair point on the technical aspects (aside from "audio quality" - not sure what you mean there). I want to know more about that too, and I'm looking forward to those details being revealed as launch nears.

Audio quality == objective improvements over the regular Helix platform. Signal to noise ratio, dynamic range, etc.

Modeling Chutzpah is pretty vague, but I'll repeat what I always say having owned all of the major platforms: None of them have better amp models across the board. Each of them has some I think are done more realistically and better sounding than their competitors.

I don't really agree to be honest. Take the QC for example... a lot of the amps don't really sound like the real thing. They sound crafted, hyped, post-processed, and far enough away from every day references, that it did bother me.

Helix has an air of squirrels/artifacts about the amp models that Fractal doesn't have as well. I'm really hoping Agoura closes that gap.

I'm extensively shooting out my FM9 and Helix right now, and it only reconfirms that Line 6 got almost all of the major food groups right as of 3.8. Fractal will always have them beat in terms of depth/diversity/selection across every category but bass amps. I don't think anyone disputes that, but that also matter less and less to me. If anything, I try to avoid the virtual amp collecting like the plague because it's antithetical to productivity.

Yeah I getcha. I'm less fussed about having hundreds of amp models these days. I just want a few super high quality ones, because ultimately if it isn't as good as connecting an amp to a loadbox, then for me it is a waste of time.

 

[EOengineer]

I'm less fussed about having hundreds of amp models these days. I just want a few super high quality ones, because ultimately if it isn't as good as connecting an amp to a loadbox, then for me it is a waste of time.

This is pretty much what it distills down to for me. I’m using zero amp modeling for recording because I’m experiencing better results with my amp -> Suhr RL.

Quality > variety.

Above all else, Stadium needs to come to the table with more modeling realism or it’s not going to stick around here. I’m a huge supporter of modeling but I have way too many nice tube amps and effects here and less patience than I used to have when trying to get shit done.

 

[mikah912]

Audio quality == objective improvements over the regular Helix platform. Signal to noise ratio, dynamic range, etc.


I don't really agree to be honest. Take the QC for example... a lot of the amps don't really sound like the real thing. They sound crafted, hyped, post-processed, and far enough away from every day references, that it did bother me.

Helix has an air of squirrels/artifacts about the amp models that Fractal doesn't have as well. I'm really hoping Agoura closes that gap.

I'm going to need to see some citations on the signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range comparisons.

Also, the "Helix has an air of squirrels and artifacts" is old FUDspeak. Call up any recent amp with gain involved (e.g. Bogner Ecstasy, Orange Rockerverb, JCM 800 2203, 5153, etc.) and let some notes ring out. It's a natural decay that sounds like what comes out of my FM9. Any crackling is the real life crossover distortion I hear on both platforms.

Every time Sonic Drive Studio does a blind shootout and makes people record their guesses on which is which, it's a complete mishmash, indicating that there is no crackling signature or lowered quality that gives Helix away versus Fractal when run through an identical signal chain. Or listen to Leon Todd's 2203 shootout between all of the major platforms.

I'm excited about Agoura, no doubt, but the HX amps (as of 3.8) already rate with the best modeling on the market. Fractal has lots of flavors they don't and they offer far greater tweakability and granularity. But the quality has been there, man.

 

[Orvillain]

I'm going to need to see some citations on the signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range comparisons.

Not sure what you mean?

Also, the "Helix has an air of squirrels and artifacts" is old FUDspeak.

@MirrorProfiles and I were discussing this a while ago. When we do blind tests, we're mostly able to pick out Helix from everything else. There's something in the high frequencies that makes it jump out. I'm not saying it cannot sound good.

Call up any recent amp with gain involved (e.g. Bogner Ecstasy, Orange Rockerverb, JCM 800 2203, 5153, etc.) and let some notes ring out. It's a natural decay that sounds like what comes out of my FM9. Any crackling is the real life crossover distortion I hear on both platforms.

I have one right here, and I'm very experienced with the Helix. I stand by what I said.

Every time Sonic Drive Studio does a blind shootout and makes people record their guesses on which is which, it's a complete mishmash, indicating that there is no crackling signature or lowered quality that gives Helix away versus Fractal when run through an identical signal chain. Or listen to Leon Todd's 2203 shootout between all of the major platforms.

It is a fair point. But maybe consider that this is not what those results indicate. They could indicate that those guitarists don't know what to listen for when it comes to identifying flaws in digital systems. Perhaps.

I definitely hear an annoying thing in the high frequencies for Helix amp models that after some time starts to grate on me.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Not sure what you mean?


@MirrorProfiles and I were discussing this a while ago. When we do blind tests, we're mostly able to pick out Helix from everything else. There's something in the high frequencies that makes it jump out. I'm not saying it cannot sound good.

I have one right here, and I'm very experienced with the Helix. I stand by what I said.


It is a fair point. But maybe consider that this is not what those results indicate. They could indicate that those guitarists don't know what to listen for when it comes to identifying flaws in digital systems. Perhaps.

I definitely hear an annoying thing in the high frequencies for Helix amp models that after some time starts to grate on me.

Disembodied distortion strikes again.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

Disembodied distortion strikes again.

Disembodied distortion… isn‘t that what modern metal bass players like so much?

 

[mikah912]

Not sure what you mean?


@MirrorProfiles and I were discussing this a while ago. When we do blind tests, we're mostly able to pick out Helix from everything else. There's something in the high frequencies that makes it jump out. I'm not saying it cannot sound good.

I have one right here, and I'm very experienced with the Helix. I stand by what I said.


It is a fair point. But maybe consider that this is not what those results indicate. They could indicate that those guitarists don't know what to listen for when it comes to identifying flaws in digital systems. Perhaps.

I definitely hear an annoying thing in the high frequencies for Helix amp models that after some time starts to grate on me.

When you say "you're very experienced with Helix", does that mean you don't have a current hardware one and you're going off of sonic memory?

That's not to undercut what you're saying....I'm just asking as a point of clarification.

Bottom line, I can't ever tell anyone what they're hearing. So if you say you hear something in the high frequencies of every Helix amp model across all gain ranges, onboard cabs and IRs....I arch an eyebrow, but take you at your word.

I don't hear any sort of systemwide inherent thing of the sort, and I've not seen it measured objectively with the current firmware versus Fractal. But that doesn't mean you're wrong.

 

[mikah912]

Disembodied distortion strikes again.

I know you've heard or experienced it every time you try to give Helix a whirl as well. I did too some time back, and let it fade into the background right around the time I got my first FM3. With fresh ears - and having spent a lot of time in the FM3/Quad Cortex/FM9 woods - I don't feel that way anymore.

Ultimately, I think they know there's a squirrel-sized elephant in the room and they're going to have to prove that they've conquered it to win over sceptics.

 

[Lysander]

So true. I can't speak for all Stadium future owners, but I'd bet what we're mostly looking for is the new footprint (especially with the non-XL model), the new UI, Showcase...

However, the thing I currently want to know the most is when it will be available in Europe and how much it will cost.

^^^ This. The non-XL is pretty much the perfect footprint for me, and i need one like i need oxygen at this point. No launch (or preorder!) date available for Europe thou

 

[EOengineer]

I'm going to need to see some citations on the signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range comparisons.

DI has mentioned Stadium having improved dynamic range and improved SNR over Helix in multiple marketing videos and interviews. If we’re talking in comparison with Fractal hardware then I can’t speak to that.

 

[mikah912]

DI has mentioned Stadium having improved dynamic range and improved SNR over Helix in multiple marketing videos and interviews. If we’re talking in comparison with Fractal hardware then I can’t speak to that.

Cliff himself said at TOP that "The [FM3] A/D converters have 114 dB of dynamic range and are probably the same converters used in the Stomp. The instrument input on the FM-3 uses a dynamic range enhancement technique which boosts the dynamic range to 123 dB [which is exactly where Helix is]."

 

[Orvillain]

When you say "you're very experienced with Helix", does that mean you don't have a current hardware one and you're going off of sonic memory?

No, I have one right here next to me, alongside my Axe 3. I've used a Helix since 2016.

 

[Los-D]

Disembodied distortion strikes again.

“Always boil in milk”

 

[mikah912]

No, I have one right here next to me, alongside my Axe 3. I've used a Helix since 2016.

Then I'm rooting right alongside you.

I love that gadflies in these here forum streets hold them accountable - as long as it's in good faith - for sonic minutiae that a lot of the masses may miss out on entirely. That's how we got the so-much-better 2203, oversampling and probably more than a few Stadium features.

 

[GTR37]

I noticed a pretty good difference after the oversampling update and the new cab block implementation as far as noise floor and artifacts
There was a recent post @MirrorProfiles that was posted where he found noise related to perhaps DC hum and he listed off a bunch of side effects of that including higher noise floor
I believe it was not in every model but the XTC for sure and about half a dozen others
DI took it to Ben to look at

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Also, the "Helix has an air of squirrels and artifacts" is old FUDspeak. Call up any recent amp with gain involved (e.g. Bogner Ecstasy, Orange Rockerverb, JCM 800 2203, 5153, etc.) and let some notes ring out. It's a natural decay that sounds like what comes out of my FM9. Any crackling is the real life crossover distortion I hear on both platforms.

I'm with Orvillian here. I really like Helix's modelling but it always has a characteristic that is quite easy to pick out in blind tests, especially in the top end. I've done quite a lot blind tests publicly involving them and Im always surprised how many people seem to be able to identify Helix. I think the modelling is still impressive but I would like to see the new platform step things up (I think they will). Also I think the new Bogner sounds totally broken and not correct. It does not sound or behave like Fractal, Neural DSP, or Mercuriall's Ecstasy, all of which sound and behave a lot more similar to each other.

 

[mikah912]

I'm with Orvillian here. I really like Helix's modelling but it always has a characteristic that is quite easy to pick out in blind tests, especially in the top end. I've done quite a lot blind tests publicly involving them and Im always surprised how many people seem to be able to identify Helix. I think the modelling is still impressive but I would like to see the new platform step things up (I think they will). Also I think the new Bogner sounds totally broken and not correct. It does not sound or behave like Fractal, Neural DSP, or Mercuriall's Ecstasy, all of which sound and behave a lot more similar to each other.

Fractal's is based upon a 20th Anniversary, which I think is a higher-regarded iteration than the 101B that Line 6 modeled. I know it has voicing and gain differences. Quad Cortex only has a handful of captures of a 100B.

I've played a 101B, and the Ecstasy doesn't sound "totally broken" or broken at all to me (that characteristic Biogner "THICC mid" character is there in spades. Even with the switches engaged on the real thing, it never got "modern" tight) but I'm definitely going off sonic memory from some years back.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I know you've heard or experienced it every time you try to give Helix a whirl as well. I did too some time back, and let it fade into the background right around the time I got my first FM3. With fresh ears - and having spent a lot of time in the FM3/Quad Cortex/FM9 woods - I don't feel that way anymore.

Ultimately, I think they know there's a squirrel-sized elephant in the room and they're going to have to prove that they've conquered it to win over sceptics.

I'm not skeptical necessarily. This thing will sell like ABSOLUTE gangbusters. I think there is a large crowd of fans of amps that might exhibit those spitty/unsmooth kinds of sounds that love the Helix. FAS is all about Marshalls and Mesas in my mind and the HX stuff is Fender/Fender-derived stuff. Whether that actually is how it is or not? My last go round before (gasp) selling the Stomp was solid! I liked the effects I used for gigging but going back to the FAS stuff was just my modeling home base comparatively.

 

[mikah912]

I'm not skeptical necessarily. This thing will sell like ABSOLUTE gangbusters. I think there is a large crowd of fans of amps that might exhibit those spitty/unsmooth kinds of sounds that love the Helix. FAS is all about Marshalls and Mesas in my mind and the HX stuff is Fender/Fender-derived stuff. Whether that actually is how it is or not? My last go round before (gasp) selling the Stomp was solid! I liked the effects I used for gigging but going back to the FAS stuff was just my modeling home base comparatively.

Fractal most certainly gives the various shades of Marshall and Mesa waaaaaaaaaaaay more love, both in terms of diversity of models and in refining component behavior.

I've never agreed with Helix having just one Recto configuration channel, along with just a Mark IV without switches and a Lonestar. Same with only just a Plexi and JCM800.

That being said, the newer 2203 JCM800 is damn good and scratches a lot of itches, especially when you put an SD1 in front. I expect similar magic from the Agoura Plexi. And Helix more than delivers on the amps that basically a "Hype knob" version of a Recto - Revv Generator 120, PRS Archon, etc.

But I get it. The Fractal amp family is immense, unmatched and easy to get lost in.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Fractal most certainly gives the various shades of Marshall and Mesa waaaaaaaaaaaay more love, both in terms of diversity of models and in refining component behavior.

I've never agreed with Helix having just one Recto configuration channel, along with just a Mark IV without switches and a Lonestar. Same with only just a Plexi and JCM800.

That being said, the newer 2203 JCM800 is damn good and scratches a lot of itches, especially when you put an SD1 in front. I expect similar magic from the Agoura Plexi. And Helix more than delivers on the amps that basically a "Hype knob" version of a Recto - Revv Generator 120, PRS Archon, etc.

But I get it. The Fractal amp family is immense, unmatched and easy to get lost in.

I am 100% sure it'll be a banger, regardless of whether people "jump ship" or not