Kemper Profiler MK 2

[[Nathan]]

How is Fractal in a different lane than Line 6 or Kemper for that matter?

They have no retail presence and in some parts of the world flat out no distribution.

It’s also kind of the modeller for nerds and enthusiasts. A lot of guitarists find it intimidating compared to everything else. Cliff also does what Cliff wants and doesn’t answer to anyone. Firmwares are massively abundant compared to anyone else ever. All of that makes them pretty unique.

I guess the closest thing to this setup is kemper, but they have retail a presence and you don’t need to be a nerd to sit there and audition a bunch of profiles and move on, it’s a different user mindset.

 

[Sascha Franck]

In 2012, they were in a class all by themselves. Fast forward about 20+ years and they are roughly where they were in the beginning.

As an engineer, your math skills should be at least a tad better.

 

[Orvillain]

RE: the new firmware.

• More than 100,000 individual frequency points meticulously analyzed for the most precise amp recreation ever achieved.

Kemper Amps - Latest News

Kemper Amps

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At least by May 28th, they were referring to it as the most precise amp recreation ever achieved. Not even "the most precise we've ever achieved" but literally taken as read, ever achieved.

Then by July it was changed:

• More than 100,000 individual frequency points meticulously analyzed for the most powerful amp recreation ever achieved.

Kemper Amps - Latest News

Kemper Amps

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The only thing I can take from this is, Kempers engineers and marketing team aren't in sync with one another.

 

[LP59]

RE: the new firmware.

Kemper Amps - Latest News

Kemper Amps

web.archive.org

At least by May 28th, they were referring to it as the most precise amp recreation ever achieved. Not even "the most precise we've ever achieved" but literally taken as read, ever achieved.

Then by July it was changed:

Kemper Amps - Latest News

Kemper Amps

web.archive.org

The only thing I can take from this is, Kempers engineers and marketing team aren't in sync with one another.

I think the consensus from the earlier discussions in this thread about Kemper's editing of the announcement is: neither "precise" nor "powerful" make much sense in this context. "Accurate" would make sense, but they have obviously been careful to avoid that word. Aside from the fact that a computer is involved in the profiling and that it will be available on the Player, the only thing we know about the new profiling is that it is new.

 

[Orvillain]

I think the consensus from the earlier discussions in this thread about Kemper's editing of the announcement is: neither "precise" nor "powerful" make much sense in this context. "Accurate" would make sense, but they have obviously been careful to avoid that word. Aside from the fact that a computer is involved in the profiling and that it will be available on the Player, the only thing we know about the new profiling is that it is new.

I would argue that precise is synonymous with accurate. The way I read the change is, they made a claim about precision (read as accuracy) and we all jumped on it as a "ooooo what if it is really shit hot amazeballs and kills NAM even!?! ZOMG!!!" and Kemper went... woah... we've gotta manage these expectations a bit. Change the wording.

 

[AlbertA]

Accuracy vs precision is taught in high-school science classes no?

In the context of an amp capture and model system:

• Precise but not accurate => You always get the same capture all the time but it's not close to the real amp being captured (not accurate).
• Accurate but not precise => A capture may some times nail the real amp being captured (accurate) but doesn't do it consistently over multiple captures. The process doesn't give you a similar result every time, it's inconsistent.
• Accurate and Precise => Every capture consistently nails the real amp.

 

[LP59]

Accuracy vs precision is taught in high-school science classes no?

In the context of an amp capture and model system:

• Precise but not accurate => You always get the same capture all the time but it's not close to the real amp being captured (not accurate).
• Accurate but not precise => A capture may some times nail the real amp being captured (accurate) but doesn't do it consistently over multiple captures. The process doesn't give you a similar result every time, it's inconsistent.
• Accurate and Precise => Every capture consistently nails the real amp.

There should be some mention of mean values in there, but yes, that's the gist of it. It would make no sense in the context of profiling to brag about precision and not accuracy, so using the word "precise" in the initial announcement must have been an error, and many people pointed that out to Kemper. I would guess that's why they changed it (to "powerful" which is meaningless), or maybe Orvillian is right and they changed it to walk back expectations.

The whole situation is rather vague and murky, especially with the way they made the announcement but never had any follow-up like companies would normally do to build marketing momentum ahead of the release. As somebody mentioned above, interest in the new profiling has waned, so if Kemper had any marketing momentum, it's gone now.

 

[2dor]

So did they drop any hints when the new profiling tech drops? I know they said summer but we're now in the last stretch of August lol.

 

[Dimiguitar]

The whole situation is rather vague and murky, especially with the way they made the announcement but never had any follow-up like companies would normally do to build marketing momentum ahead of the release.

It's Kemper though. No follow up before release is common for them, imo.

 

[Gary_W]

It sounds like you're feeling a little betrayed by Kemper. However, keep in mind they have not said the new profiling is more accurate than the current profiling. We're assuming it's better in some way, but Kemper hasn't said how it is better. So I wouldn't jump ship just yet because of that issue.

Betrayed is a little strong; as mentioned, I’ve had fantastic value from my Mk1. I just think they needed to be more careful with their messaging here. They have been inferring the new method is better - I know the language has changed (precise vs powerful) on the website but they’ve made a thing of saying the mk1 units don’t have the legs to use the new method whereas player and mk2 do. It’s not a case of jumping ship as such….. my choices are ‘stay with Mk1’ or ‘do something else’. I don’t think mk2 is a choice for me as, if a sound quality improvement is all there is, then that’s not enough when their previous stance has been ‘it’s already there’. At the time Mk1 launched I think the choice if you wanted top-notch digital core sounds was Kemper or Fractal. Fractal was harder to buy, more expensive, had a reputation on the Kemper forum for switching hardware all the time (maybe undeserved but that’s a perception played upon). They haven’t realised that’s not the only competitor capable of excellent core sounds these days.

A Kemper 2 in 2-5 years is an optimistic viewpoint. Realistically though, I doubt that's going to happen. Christoph has been working with the same processor for 30 years. If he had the interest and/or resources to move on to something more modern or powerful, he would have done so already. Instead, we have the Mk2, with the same architecture. It's good, but it is what it is. You can see from the fixed effects in the recent firmware update that they are running out of headroom for improvements.

IMHO they are making the best of the situation. They're locked into an architecture, so they'll just ride it as long as they can.

I agree it’s unlikely and, if they did move to a new platform in that timescale then your betrayal comment above would be something a lot of folks feel. I think a lot of the loyalty to the brand has come from them supporting the existing platform with updates over a long period. I hope that those who have invested in mk2 this time get a similar lifespan of improvements but that’s looking like a stretch when starting with something that is already at the starting point of ‘it’s good but it is what it is’.

 

[laxu]

Should we start putting our degrees in our signature? How about our whole resume? Or is just proclaiming our profession once a page enough?

I've got a Bachelor of Arts degree. I'm telling you that the Kemper Mk1 with its 16th century fishnet graphics evoking the works of the Dutch painter (and town drunk) Hugó Van Der Fríelœder was the more artistic product!

Hugó preferred to paint what he saw...which was most of the time the fishnets they used to catch him when he fell off the pier.

 

[Dimiguitar]

That's fair.

I happen to like how it works for me. All of the top tier digital amps are pretty good sounding to my ear. I don't get the attack dog mentality here on Kemper.

While I'm not in anyone's mind specifically, I think just as there is radical pro Kemper mindset, where everything else is a turd, the opposite can also form as reactionary anti-kemper sentiment.

I feel bad for some of the attacks on you on this thread. I think people need a reminder this is an online forum and that there's a lot we don't know about each other.

 

[Dimiguitar]

Since we're doing CVs, lel, my background is in analytic and moral philosophy (and death stranding). I can't speak about aliasing, but based on my expertise, I think the new color is sleek... But the original white one was pretty special.

 

[Orvillain]

Accuracy vs precision is taught in high-school science classes no?

In the context of an amp capture and model system:

• Precise but not accurate => You always get the same capture all the time but it's not close to the real amp being captured (not accurate).
• Accurate but not precise => A capture may some times nail the real amp being captured (accurate) but doesn't do it consistently over multiple captures. The process doesn't give you a similar result every time, it's inconsistent.
• Accurate and Precise => Every capture consistently nails the real amp.

Fair enough. But in either case, Kempers wording around this is patent bullshit. Powerful is bollocks. Doesn't mean shit. They originally used the word precise, which I guess we have to now read as "more consistently shit than any Kemper has ever been in the history of Kemper!"

... which isn't really a good way to sell stuff!

At the moment Kemper is in not accurate and not precise territory. They simply need to do better in order for me to even be arsed with them at this point.

 

[Dimiguitar]

At the moment Kemper is in not accurate and not precise territory. They simply need to do better in order for me to even be arsed with them at this point.

I think accuracy is a spectrum for all current tech. Even NAM is not perfect if the barometer is NULL testing. Kemper isn't on the level of NAM, obviously, but it's certainly accurate enough to where it confuses many people in blind tests.

I made this test myself 7, 8 years ago. Kemper felt somewhat different to the source, if I remember right, but it's tough for me to tell the sound difference. And this is also a good tone for my taste.

 

[Orvillain]

if the barometer is NULL testing

I know we make jokes about null tests, but no they're not the barometer. Certainly not for me anyway. I just use my ears. The Kemper is 9 times out of 10, extremely different to the reference amp. Always has been.

NAM is the closest, to the point where the inverse is true - 9 times out of time, I cannot hear a difference.

Quad Cortex and ToneX sit between the two. Not perfectly accurate, and 7 times out of 10 I'd say they are different to the real amp. But the differences are less offensive.

 

[Dimiguitar]

I know we make jokes about null tests, but no they're not the barometer. Certainly not for me anyway. I just use my ears. The Kemper is 9 times out of 10, extremely different to the reference amp. Always has been.

NAM is the closest, to the point where the inverse is true - 9 times out of time, I cannot hear a difference.

Quad Cortex and ToneX sit between the two. Not perfectly accurate, and 7 times out of 10 I'd say they are different to the real amp. But the differences are less offensive.

At times, I have high end issues with tonex, especially for tones with a lot of presence. And I always compensate for gain levels. Don't see such issues with properly made nam captures.

I've created corrective EQ match IRs for the high end reason (tonex ). Also made such IRs for kemper to address different problems but had less success there.

It's also my experience that existing innacuracies are less bothersome than the Kemper. There's more of the palm mute guts there for feel with tonex and certainly nam.

 

[Dimiguitar]

But whether I can consistently spot these Kemper innacuracies varries. It's very easy if I have a guitar on my hands and A/B. The feel reveals a lot. Doubt I've ever had a case where Kemper was hard to tell apart in a blind feel test and I've done many.

But there's certainly audio tests where I get things wrong. That isn't indicative of "perfect accuracy measured in every way" (NULL or not), but it's still indicative of a meaningful level of accuracy for me.

It's part of why Andy Sneap has used Kemper as much, yes? The fact that it can sound as close to the source signal chains in mixes.

 

[Eagle]

The problem with the new one is DSP is the same so there’s nothing but software in the mk 2 that’s going to be different. That can still be good but it doesn’t say much about future proofing the unit. It also is starting from o 15year old base. I know sounds good is good but why buy a new hardware that is essentially the same. I know the high gain people have issues with it but the original is a proven product that has toured the world over for over a decade so we will have to see. Also it’s not expensive.

 

[Dimiguitar]

I know the high gain people have issues with it but the original is a proven product that has toured the world over for over a decade so we will have to see. Also it’s not expensive.

You may consider buying it if you value accuracy very much, in specific ways, assuming the new profiling is considerably better.

Also we don't know whether there's going to be other, new software features eventually released Kemper keeps locked in for MKII (even if they wouldn't have to for hardware reasons).

I don't believe these would be too substantial, but nonetheless. Some are extremely loyal to Kemper and would probably upgrade even for minor updates.