Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Chocol8]

If you have to have everything but the actual amp head in the room for the “right experience” what’s the point? If I felt like I needed to cart a power amp and 4x12 everywhere for my modeler to sound right I wouldn’t use the modeler.

A small digital device and power amp is considerably smaller and lighter than most tube amps, and a heck of a lot more flexible. There is still plenty of reason to use digital through a real cab.

 

[ian_dissonance]

The point is versatility.

To what end? Pissing off the sound guy?

 

[ian_dissonance]

A small digital device and power amp is considerably smaller and lighter than most tube amps, and a heck of a lot more flexible. There is still plenty of reason to use digital through a real cab.

You’re 3/4 of the way to a regular rig, doesn’t check out unless you’re playing at home.

 

[OneEng]

Hyper accuracy NAM models feel like they’re in a totally different universe, and the latency is lower too.

IIRC, Kemper's latency is like 2-3mSec. I don't believe anyone can hear that. This is the equivalent of a floor monitor (or your amp) being 2-3 feet from your head. Most of us play with a monitor ~ 6 ft away (about 6 mSec delay) and can't hear a delay.

I think for most people the most important thing for a profiler is: does it sound just like the original amp?

I wonder if that is right. I am guessing that >90% of Kemper owners don't profile amps (me being one of them).

It's really funny that we spent over 100 pages on this thread arguing about aliasing and null tests because I don't think the overwhelming majority of guitarists would notice any of that. I think most guitarists would hear the profiles and A/B against their amp and think it sounds really similar. Big time guitarists used the Kemper for tours and sessions because it sounded and felt great.

People aren't moving away from Kemper because of accuracy, but because the competition has improved and offered better products. Quad Cortex has a much better UX in a more compact package, Helix had a much better UX with more effects and now looks to be even better with the Stadium, Fractal has tons of amps and effects all in the box with crazy routing capabilities, Tonex has amp/cab in mini pedals for $150, and NDSP plugins give pro studio sound all on a computer for under $100.

I don't think Kemper Mk2 is going to move the needle for anyone other than hardcore Kemper users which is dwindling.

I agree with this completely.

And the only measure of accuracy that really matters is how it compares through studio monitors or FOH.

If you’re buying a profiling or capture device to mimic an amp in the room through a cab then you’re doing it wrong to start with.

I think this is what gets many old tube amp players upset (with any digital device). I also think that many of them simply play LOUD and that level of impact becomes the "amp in the room sound".

Through the PA you are never going to hear that level of impact (or in a recording) because it would make the mix completely wacked. Playing in a band with a real guitar cab as your only source of sound for the guitar is a tremendously bad idea. Very beamy. One side of the audience will be blown out of the room and the other half wont hear you at all.

As a result, the only thing that really matters is how the guitar sounds through the PA. This is where Kemper and modelers shine IMO.

 

[Chocol8]

You’re 3/4 of the way to a regular rig, doesn’t check out unless you’re playing at home.

I am glad you guys know the right and wrong way for me and everyone else to play!

I am not a metal guy, so I don't need to haul a 4x12. I have a 1x12 with a fairly heavy speaker that is still a good bit smaller and lighter than my "FRFR", so yeah, I can take a rig with a real speaker or an "FRFR" for very similar size and weight and I prefer the workflow and sound of one over the other. But I am wrong? Uh OK.

 

[OneEng]

I am glad you guys know the right and wrong way for me and everyone else to play!

I am not a metal guy, so I don't need to haul a 4x12. I have a 1x12 with a fairly heavy speaker that is still a good bit smaller and lighter than my ""FRFR"", so yeah, I can take a rig with a real speaker or an ""FRFR"" for very similar size and weight and I prefer the workflow and sound of one over the other. But I am wrong? Uh OK.

It's not "wrong", it's problematic on a wide venue (which many are wide and shallow) because of how directional guitar cabs are.

I think most anyone that has gigged much at all has done a "vocal only" PA setup though. Saying you can't get good sound that way is incorrect ..... but it is much harder to do and it requires certain conditions to exist as well.... or it is problematic.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I think most anyone that has gigged much at all has done a "vocal only" PA setup

In 40 years of gigging, not even once.

 

[Chocol8]

It's not "wrong", it's problematic on a wide venue (which many are wide and shallow) because of how directional guitar cabs are.

That depends greatly on the cab. An open back 1x12 is a very different beast than a closed back 4x12 when it comes to directionality.

 

[Chocol8]

To what end? Pissing off the sound guy?

With digital and a real cab you can still play a variety of amps through the same cab, just like a lot of guys play different amp models through the same IR to keep some semblance of continuity in tone while also having variation. I am usually only using 2-3, but some people do a lot more variation than I do.

 

[fiftyshadesofslay]

I am sorry but that is complete bull shit used as an excuse for limitations of cab modeling. We don't all listen to music only through studio monitors or PA systems. Maybe you do, but I don't and not just for my own playing. More than half of the live music I go to see is small venue with simple PA and amps are not mic'ed.

It is irrelevant to the way I often use captures and modeling and irrelevant to the way we tested. Real amp, model, or capture played through a real cab should be able to sound the same. The good ones get extremely close. There is nothing "wrong" with doing it that way.

Honestly, all these devices are primarily designed to emulate a mic’d up signal through some sort of full range system.

I love making noise with an actual cab on stage too, but if that was my primary focus a modeller and power amp and cab would be the very last thing I’d want to be using.

When I used a powered Kemper for years it was great to have some stage volume for fun but I was always aware it was going to sound a bit shit. But as long as FOH sounded good then that’s fine.

Obviously I wasn’t there but I’d wager that in your test, through a solid state amp and cab, that they all sounded pretty terrible.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Ok fine, if you’re using a 1x12 Neo speaker I guess that’s easier. I don’t think that’s what @Eagle was referring to. I am a metal guy and my 1x12 and 2x12 "FRFR" are infinitely more consistent room to room than any open/closed/single/multi-speaker cab I’ve ever experienced and are plenty loud for vocal-only PA gigs these days. If “gigging experience” doesn’t include at least 4-5 years of multiband bills in dive bars with 10 minute changeover, we’re talking about very different experiences, lol.

 

[Chocol8]

Honestly, all these devices are primarily designed to emulate a mic’d up signal through some sort of full range system.

Lets pretend for a second that you are correct...

Why does pretty much every digital device I have purchased in the last 24 or so years allow you to disable the cab simulation? It seems like they are ALL designed to give you the option of cab sim or running a real cab. Hmmmmmm.

 

[Richard_G]

I’m always amazed when lack of accuracy is met by fans of a certain tech with an argument that not everyone profiles/captures their own amps.

Of course you want to be able to accurately profile/capture your own amp.

But that doesn’t make accuracy irrelevant in other use cases.

You also want others to be able to accurately profile/capture the amps they are in possession of, so you can play an accurate recreation of that amp!

 

[ian_dissonance]

Lets pretend for a second that you are correct...

Why does pretty much every digital device I have purchased in the last 24 or so years allow you to disable the cab simulation? It seems like they are ALL designed to give you the option of cab sim or running a real cab. Hmmmmmm.

Because guitar players are luddites and can’t understand the difference between "FRFR" and a cab on paper so they have to try themselves. It’s the same reason you see guys drop $3k on a modeling rig and $250 on a Headrush speaker and then wonder why their shit doesn’t sound exactly like a 5150 half stack. Much like the USB recording on the OG Helix, the cab-off option is there because it can be and some people will be mad if it isn’t.

 

[Chocol8]

Obviously I wasn’t there but I’d wager that in your test, through a solid state amp and cab, that they all sounded pretty terrible.

You would be very wrong. They sound great, but the SS amps used were not cheap/small/light class D amps. The McIntosh 2100 is a 60 lb beast with very tube amp like characteristics. I would bet very few people on this forum, if anyone, could stand and play in front of a full stack and tell the difference between a 100w Marshall head driving it and either a good Tonex/NAM capture or a Fractal model through the Mac. All the power, and feel of the attack is there.

I would also bet that no one would stand in front of a cranked 100w Marshall stack or to Eagle's earlier point, a real Twin Reverb cranked up and say "this sounds and feels wrong" it should be more like and "FRFR". There is a visceral experience that good real amps provide that simply has to be experienced to understand.

 

[JiveTurkey]

If I'm carrying a 60lb power amp; its going to have tubes in it.

 

[Chocol8]

I’m always amazed when lack of accuracy is met by fans of said tech with an argument that not everyone profiles/captures their own amps.

Of course you want to be able to accurately profile/capture your own amp.

But that doesn’t make accuracy irrelevant in other use cases.

You also want others to be able to accurately profile/capture the amps they are in possession of, so you can play an accurate recreation of that amp!

Especially since the accuracy issues are NOT minor EQ differences. They are things like weird artifacts or not responding to the guitar/playing the same way,

 

[MirrorProfiles]

IIRC, Kemper's latency is like 2-3mSec. I don't believe anyone can hear that. This is the equivalent of a floor monitor (or your amp) being 2-3 feet from your head. Most of us play with a monitor ~ 6 ft away (about 6 mSec delay) and can't hear a delay.

I seem to remember it being 5ms if it’s set to fixed, or less if it’s set to variable (will depend on things in the preset and settings. I don’t care about latency that low but for someone particularly sensitive to feel and an accurate response, lower gives more breathing space to use combine other gear that adds latency.

I think the overwhelming majority of guitarists would hear when the kemper falls short when presented with good examples of it. Most kemper users never hear the source tone and often haven’t even played the source amp before. Most don’t care, but most would also appreciate if things suddenly sounded better.

 

[Chocol8]

If I'm carrying a 60lb power amp; its going to have tubes in it.

1) If I am carrying 60 lbs of amp these days, it better be a combo and a damn good sounding one.

2) I would put the big Mac's up against any power amp with tubes as far as tone, plus they have the advantage when it comes to raw power and reliability/durability. But, who the heck needs 400 plus watts of power on stage anymore?

The Mac for me is basically a reference amp these days. It gives me an example of how good a rig can sound and then I know what I am giving up if I take a MosValve 982 or an SD PS-170.

 

[Richard_G]

IIRC, Kemper's latency is like 2-3mSec. I don't believe anyone can hear that. This is the equivalent of a floor monitor (or your amp) being 2-3 feet from your head. Most of us play with a monitor ~ 6 ft away (about 6 mSec delay) and can't hear a delay.

I’m not too worried about latency in the 2-3 mS range. But one have to also take into consideration that many people also use other digital items in their signal chains (like separate delays and reverbs, for instance), and that these things do add up. So if we use your example of playing with a monitor 6 ft away and then add 2-5 digital items with 2-3 mS latency each, the combined latency can quickly become an issue.