Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Sascha Franck]

Anyway, a keyboard is a lot more easy to make it behave like a real piano than e-drums like real drums, just make the keys with the same weight, carefully calibrate the velocity and you're basically done.

Yeah - while not applicable to all situations (the "grand in a room" experience is likely as important to some players as "amp in the room" is for some guitar players, let alone some players are even damping the strings with their hands inside the grand sometimes), within whatever standard piano/key performance there's a whole lot less parameters to deal with. Note on/off, velocity and sustain (plus maybe "semi-press-sustain", Una Corda and Sostenuto) - and that was pretty much it already.

 

[Deleted member 490]

Yeah - while not applicable to all situations (the "grand in a room" experience is likely as important to some players as "amp in the room" is for some guitar players, let alone some players are even damping the strings with their hands inside the grand sometimes), within whatever standard piano/key performance there's a whole lot less parameters to deal with. Note on/off, velocity and sustain (plus maybe "semi-press-sustain", Una Corda and Sostenuto) - and that was pretty much it already.

And that's probably one of the main reasons (together with the huge weight savings) why keyboards historically were the first instruments to be digitized and the first whose digital/electronic versions became widely popular, several decades before amp modelers and edrums.

 

[Sascha Franck]

And that's probably one of the main reasons (together with the huge weight savings) why keyboards historically were the first instruments to be digitized and the first whose digital/electronic versions became widely popular, several decades before amp modelers and edrums.

Add to this that keyboarders seem to be vastly more enthusiastic regarding new tonal options whereas in guitar player land the climax of "good sound" has happened in the 70s already (ok, add a bit of 2000s chugging flavour to it).

 

[metropolis_4]

Drummers are mostly worried about looking silly to other drummers so they cart their kits everywhere. An Ekit with a stick and sub speaker system directly behind the drummer would be way more appropriate most places, lol.

Looks have nothing to do with it. Most drummers I know are very practical about gear. But e-drums are the worst!

They sound and feel horrible. Asking a drummer to play them is like asking a guitarist to play their parts on one of those MIDI guitars with buttons for frets.

Most drummers I know have a set of them, but they only use them when they have no other choice.

Mallet Kats are a whole other story though, everyone loves those

 

[metropolis_4]

If you only count apes hitting things with sticks, maybe acoustic drums are still more popular than electric kits, but that is a maybe.

No. It’s the complete opposite. I see acoustic drums being the most popular with drummers who have the most control and the best touch on the instrument.

Guys who are just pounding away don’t tend to care as much about the nuances of feel and touch and response from the instrument so e-drums don’t matter as much, and you can play as hard as you want with them without worrying about volume.

In a lot of settings the only players who can pull off acoustic drums are the ones who have the skill level to play anything at any volume.

 

[metropolis_4]

This is a great example of why so many drummers hate e-drums. 90% of what they’re doing here is not possible to play on e-drums because they’re too primitive and limiting.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I think you didn't get my point. They sound real on a record because those samples still come from real drums, so no surprise they sound real, and thru automations, randomizers and all that stuff you can get a lot of expressivity too.
And at that point you don't even need to play a kit, just program it in a DAW.

But all that doesn't really apply when you play the actual instrument. Firstly cuz most e-drums sound modules are not nearly as powerful/versatile as plugins like superior drummer.
Secondly, cuz the instrument itself is limited compared to real drums.
Take a ride cymbal for example, most cymbal pads have 2 or 3 zones at most, a real one has basically an infinite number of zones instead, you can get a ton of different sounds just by moving the tip of your stick by 1 cm on its surface or even by changing the angle at which you hit it.
That's simply not replicable with a pad.

PS: and that's just one example, cuz a lot others come to mind. E.g. if you hit twice in fast succession a real drum/cymbal, the second time the sound is different than the first one cuz the head/cymbal is still ringing and the second hit stops it and somewhat interferes with that. With samples, you just get the same sample twice, and sometimes it doesn't even stop the first one when the second starts.
Or just hear what happens when you make the stick bounce on a snare and how hard that's to replicate with an edrum.

I mean, even a guitar sample will sound realistic on a record, but I bet you'd never play a guitar by converting its signal to midi to then play guitar samples thru a VSTi, right?

I understood you just don’t agree.
Why do I need to use the build in sounds? Why can’t I trigger Superior samples? Oh, I can.

As for your cymbal thing with a multitude of sounds from hitting it in different spots with different alterations is really not different than a guitar.
It really is a matter of expectations being met.
Just like a guitar being struck at x angle, at y spot at how hard generates a fundamental and overtones and when they come back at us different it’s when we say that amp sounds shit. Or modeller or profiler etc.

How do I know? Cause the drummer I’ve worked with who has been on like 200 albums occasionally uses an e-drum (with his sounds sampled) and I wouldn’t know the difference sonically.
But he hates the feel of playing it.

As for your example of 2 quick notes, I would’ve agreed but its no different than Ezbass having auto alternate index/middle finger.

Anyways the point is, that the sounds come from the trigger whether that’s mics, an emit or mouse clicking notes in the drum editor the only one that feels fun is the kit with triggers.

And then there’s convenience.

As for samples and input method, the guitar isn’t just an input device that merely drives a voltage otherwise Toontrack already would have come with EzGuitar. It’s the whole feedback loop from pick hits string, string causes voltage to go through amp/cab into air, ground, back into pickups and into the ears.

Very much the same on drums.

Also the same for piano, if it weren’t there be no sonic difference between guys playing notes on a piano only stylistic ones.

 

[Chocol8]

No. It’s the complete opposite. I see acoustic drums being the most popular with drummers who have the most control and the best touch on the instrument.

You missed the point. I was talking about human drummers vs drum machines and programming. There's far more of the latter than real drums these days.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

This is a great example of why so many drummers hate e-drums. 90% of what they’re doing here is not possible to play on e-drums because they’re too primitive and limiting.

I’ll give you that. But now we’re going into a direction like acoustic guitar.

Because having played with Benni, I have seen him play e drums with a squeaky stand when we partied all night.
And he used that stand to great effect.

 

[metropolis_4]

I’ll give you that. But now we’re going into a direction like acoustic guitar.

Because having played with Benni, I have seen him play e drums with a squeaky stand when we partied all night.
And he used that stand to great effect.

I bet he did! That’s awesome.

The big difference is that with digital guitar gear the guitarist is still getting to play their analog guitar, and they can still play it the same way they are used to playing it. Everything you can do on the guitar you can still do with a digital modeler because it’s not replacing the instrument itself, just the amplification and signal processing of what comes out of the guitar.

With e-drums you’re replacing the instrument itself. You can’t play it the same way. You can’t still do anything you could do on acoustic drums, you have to think differently and approach the instrument differently.

 

[metropolis_4]

You missed the point. I was talking about human drummers vs drum machines and programming. There's far more of the latter than real drums these days.

You’re just talking about in recording?

 

[OneEng]

The band sounds better in small to medium venues with edrums because there is no bleeding into all other mics.

It's also much more of a hassle to mic up acoustic drums than to setup edrums.

It's interesting that the edrum discussion evolved back to capture accuracy.... Predictable... But interesting.

 

[metropolis_4]

The band sounds better in small to medium venues with edrums because there is no bleeding into all other mics.

Not always, I’d say it’s totally dependent on the drummer, the band, the style of music, and how much of the sound is coming through a PA vs how much of the sound is being heard acoustically in the room.

Personally I think a jazz trio in a small room always sounds better with acoustic drums, unless their sound depends on electronic sounds from the drums. E-drums don’t mix right and don’t sit right alongside the acoustic instruments

 

[ian_dissonance]

Not always, I’d say it’s totally dependent on the drummer, the band, the style of music, and how much of the sound is coming through a PA vs how much of the sound is being heard acoustically in the room.

Personally I think a jazz trio in a small room always sounds better with acoustic drums, unless their sound depends on electronic sounds from the drums. E-drums don’t mix right and don’t sit right alongside the acoustic instruments

And this is definitely an instance where all those little tricks and whatnot actually matter. I band playing punk rock in a bar doesn’t really need to worry about the velocity of the ghost notes, lol. I guess I’ve just been to too many shows where weekend warriors haul I their full stacks and 73 piece drum kits to play with zero dynamics and vocals through a busted 12” Peavey from 1992. That band could almost sound like music in that space if everything could be mixed through a couple of mains and a sub versus whatever racket they’re making to drive people out to the smoking patio.

 

[Orvillain]

In case I haven't made it abundantly clear, I used to be the product owner for the Alesis Strata series of ekits, which you can effectively think of as a hardware deployment of the BFD engine. I joined BFD back in 2008 as a tech support and QA engineer, and quickly became the QA manager, and then after that I became a content developer, videographer, and product owner. I did all that for almost 19 years. I just left that job last month to go and ... do other things... so when I say I have a lot of experience, I'm not really exaggerating.

The few times I've heard e-kits used live, they've sounded tiny in comparison to an acoustic kit. I'm not talking about small PA's either. I'm talking about large 1000+ people halls; various drum shows over the years, various clinics I've taught, various trade shows.

There's still something behind the physics of acoustic drums and skin membranes that drum plugins don't do.

 

[Sascha Franck]

The band sounds better in small to medium venues with edrums because there is no bleeding into all other mics.

That depends a lot on the drummer. I know drummers being able to play very groovy and even rock a bit at living room levels.
You obviously need to adjust your playing and possibly your kit for that as well, but most often it's still easier than making e-drums work, unless everybody is using IEMs or there's excellent stage monitoring.
I defenitely prefer real drums with a drummer being able to play at lower levels any day. Just as I prefer not using IEMs in general.

 

[Orvillain]

And this is definitely an instance where all those little tricks and whatnot actually matter. I band playing punk rock in a bar doesn’t really need to worry about the velocity of the ghost notes, lol. I guess I’ve just been to too many shows where weekend warriors haul I their full stacks and 73 piece drum kits to play with zero dynamics and vocals through a busted 12” Peavey from 1992. That band could almost sound like music in that space if everything could be mixed through a couple of mains and a sub versus whatever racket they’re making to drive people out to the smoking patio.

Arguably, that band should just be filling your car with diesel and getting a 20cents tip every 6th time they do it.

<ducks>

 

[Blix]

Not always, I’d say it’s totally dependent on the drummer, the band, the style of music, and how much of the sound is coming through a PA vs how much of the sound is being heard acoustically in the room.

Personally I think a jazz trio in a small room always sounds better with acoustic drums, unless their sound depends on electronic sounds from the drums. E-drums don’t mix right and don’t sit right alongside the acoustic instruments

Also for jazz the "gold standard" drum sound is pretty much what the drums sounds acoustically. Lots of Top 40 bands could benefit from e-drums to "sound like the records", but you'll need a good PA too, and that is costly.

 

[Orvillain]

Also for jazz the "gold standard" drum sound is pretty much what the drums sounds acoustically.

Ehhhh... I think that is debateable tbh. Certainly on a recording.

 

[metropolis_4]

Also for jazz the "gold standard" drum sound is pretty much what the drums sounds acoustically. Lots of Top 40 bands could benefit from e-drums to "sound like the records", but you'll need a good PA too, and that is costly.

Sometimes though that can easily fall into the same trap as guitarists who try to use different amps in their modeler on every song to sound just like the recording.

E-drums are great when you need e-drum sounds though. If you’re playing in a top 40 band that covers songs that used e-drum sounds on the recording it’s great to have the ability to get those sounds live.

I’ve done some ‘80s pop shows with drummers using e-drums and it was a lot of fun to hear those sounds on songs like Holding Out For a Hero instead of hearing acoustic drums!