Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Orvillain]

We know you did. And it's still not sufficient.

If you smell burning toast, go to the hospital. STAT!

 

[Sascha Franck]

If you smell burning toast, go to the hospital.

I rather go to the toaster.

 

[molul]

I've barely used a Kemper, but I would only say it sucks in UX, and only after being using Helix. The Stage reminds me a lot to the Boss GT8 I had before the LT.

But regarding sound, most of the time I preferred my bandmate's tone over mine, and I remember certain effects (especially a delay whose name I forgot) that I wished they were in my Helix.

If I cared more about the amp sound than about UX, I would prefer the Stage over the LT, although back in 2020 I wouldn't have payed its price as I couldn't afford it. 5 years later, I'm about to spend more money in the Stadium, but I just like a lot what I saw, and this time I can afford it.

And that's why I think the MK2 is a huge fail. They read the market really wrong, unfortunately.


EDIT: this is the delay I loved:

 

[OneEng]

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would claim that Kemper sucks. Some people seem to be distracted from reality.

Some combination of peanut butter and ears going on there I believe .

It seems to be a weird situation.

The difference in processors seems to be this:

Device	DSP	Coprocessor 1	Coprocessor 2
Kemper MK1	Motorola/NXP DSP56720 dual core	NXP LPC2468FPD208 72 MHz single core	NXP LPC1768FBD100 100 MHz single core
Kemper Player	Motorola/NXP DSP56720 dual core	NXP LPC4327FET256 204 Mhz dual core Cortex M4	-
Kemper MK2	Motorola/NXP DSP56720 dual core	NXP LPC4327FET256 204 Mhz dual core Cortex M4	NXP LPC1768FBD100?

One recent teardown of a MK1 Toaster showed the display PCB had a NXP LPC1768FBD100 100 MHz processor, so maybe this is what's used for UI and the coprocessor is entirely used for DSP as well?

For reference, the Tonex One uses a NXP MIMXRT1061DVL6B which is a single core Cortex M7 600 MHz. That is already a lot more powerful than the Kemper coprocessor.

Straight clock speed and number of cores (and other architecture differences) don't easily compare as many computing tasks are not possible to parallelize to take advantage of multiple cores.

Maybe Kemper Player has some low power CPU for any UI/footswitch stuff since it does not have a display. It might be hidden under the control board and there's only one teardown of the unit on YT.

I'd guess that the Kemper MK2 coprocessor 1 can be used for e.g those new effects slots, or to offload some of the main DSP's effects processing to the coprocessor. This would give some main DSP CPU headroom for the new modeling.

Whatever the case, it's possible the MK1 won't get the ability to run the upgraded profiles.

Could MK1 units be upgraded to MK2? Yes, it seems that the processor boards are both removable. But it's unlikely that Kemper wants users to open up their MK1s, so I doubt they will offer the parts. Maybe an upgrade service? Who knows. Could you get your own module and flash the right firmware on it? Yes, but that would be more complicated. Maybe if you can get the Kemper to some failsafe mode that lets it rewrite it all.

Nice summary.

I disagree with your assessment of the workload though. The latency in communications between the backplane of the application processor and DSP would make it totally impossible to divide the DSP load across the two.

The application processor is exactly that. It is running the linux OS and tending to the WiFi, Ethernet, USB, LCD, Front controls, loading of rigs into the DSP, etc, etc. but NOT signal processing.

I'd even take a bet that this won't be the case - regardless of whether it'd be possible. After all, they want to sell their new(-ish) hardware.

If that is their thought then they haven't done a very good job of product management IMO. If an existing MK1 Kemper user is faced with an upgrade that provides new features and more accurate profiles for a few hundred $, it is quite palatable. If that same MK1 user is faced with ~$1.5k, that user will now consider the new Stadium, Fractal FM9, NQC, etc.

Of course, you could be correct.

Real-time DSP on a 200MHz M4? That seems highly unlikely. That chip is intended for controlling things like thermostats, where very little cpu power is needed. It’s almost certainly just used for management of presets, UI, and I/O.

Agree. Also the latency going through the backplane.

I've barely used a Kemper, but I would only say it sucks in UX, and only after being using Helix. The Stage reminds me a lot to the Boss GT8 I had before the LT.

But regarding sound, most of the time I preferred my bandmate's tone over mine, and I remember certain effects (especially a delay whose name I forgot) that I wished they were in my Helix.

If I cared more about the amp sound than about UX, I would prefer the Stage over the LT, although back in 2020 I wouldn't have payed its price as I couldn't afford it. 5 years later, I'm about to spend more money in the Stadium, but I just like a lot what I saw, and this time I can afford it.

And that's why I think the MK2 is a huge fail. They read the market really wrong, unfortunately.

I agree.... and the thing is, they could have kept the DSP and all that assembly code and simply created a new skin on the product using a new application processor. A snazzy new color touch screen and some expanded peripheral support and they could have kept a common DSP code base with a separate application processor base for each product line.

This is definitely how I would have done it .

Note: This approach would still left them without routing like Fractal/Line 6/QC, but it would have certainly created a MUCH better competitive checklist for prospective buyers. If they added in a new foot controller with OLED scribble strips, they could have then leaned into their dominance and capability in live gig/touring as their marketing push.

 

[Jarick]

And that's why I think the MK2 is a huge fail. They read the market really wrong, unfortunately.

I think that's key. Time will tell and we may not hear all the sales figures, but my guess is Kemper Mk2 isn't enough to pull people in (or back in) to Kemper land, and we'll see more people moving towards Line 6 and Fractal.

Early on Kemper had a sonic edge over the competition, but now they are looking to catch up. Maybe the new profiling sounds amazing and brings them on par with or ahead of other units. But the UX would still be dated and kind of old school, where others are going to big color touch screens.

And a lot of people will say they don't like touch screens, but the reality is most everyone spends several hours every day interacting with a touch screen phone, so it's going to be a lot more of a familiar experience than pushing buttons to navigate through pages of menus.

 

[Chocol8]

Yes, a very different story for new users vs existing users and older customers vs younger.

Kemper MK2 and new profiling might retain a portion of existing customers, but it certainly isn’t going to be appealing to new ones looking at their options for their first top tier digital device or even experienced users looking at their options.

Physical knobs and buttons might be appealing to old farts, but younger players who had touch screens since before they could walk are going to prefer a device with an iPhone like touch screen experience.

I get why people who are invested in Kemper will stick with it for a bit longer, but I think the company has set themselves up to serve a shrinking niche.

 

[molul]

And a lot of people will say they don't like touch screens, but the reality is most everyone spends several hours every day interacting with a touch screen phone, so it's going to be a lot more of a familiar experience than pushing buttons to navigate through pages of menus.

So true. This is something anyone claiming they hate touchscreens should think twice, when they've been the road to millions of people getting into "computers".

 

[laxu]

Some combination of peanut butter and ears going on there I believe .

Nice summary.

I disagree with your assessment of the workload though. The latency in communications between the backplane of the application processor and DSP would make it totally impossible to divide the DSP load across the two.

The application processor is exactly that. It is running the linux OS and tending to the WiFi, Ethernet, USB, LCD, Front controls, loading of rigs into the DSP, etc, etc. but NOT signal processing.

Very possible you are right. I'm just trying to find reasons why the Kemper Player is somehow capable of those upcoming better profiles, yet the MK1 is not. Unless it's simply artificial differentiation to sell more MK2 units.

If that is their thought then they haven't done a very good job of product management IMO. If an existing MK1 Kemper user is faced with an upgrade that provides new features and more accurate profiles for a few hundred $, it is quite palatable. If that same MK1 user is faced with ~$1.5k, that user will now consider the new Stadium, Fractal FM9, NQC, etc.

Absolutely.

I agree.... and the thing is, they could have kept the DSP and all that assembly code and simply created a new skin on the product using a new application processor. A snazzy new color touch screen and some expanded peripheral support and they could have kept a common DSP code base with a separate application processor base for each product line.

This is definitely how I would have done it .

Note: This approach would still left them without routing like Fractal/Line 6/QC, but it would have certainly created a MUCH better competitive checklist for prospective buyers. If they added in a new foot controller with OLED scribble strips, they could have then leaned into their dominance and capability in live gig/touring as their marketing push.

I think Kemper is a bit stuck. The Motorola/Freescale/NXP DSP chip seems like it has to be mostly programmed in Assembly and has limited programming capabilities with C. That would mean that any code it runs can be efficient if you know what you're doing, but also that it's difficult to port to any other architecture without rewriting from scratch.

So if they went for modern Analog Devices or NXP DSPs, they'd have to rewrite the entire Kemper processing. Which is when you would be better off just rebuilding the entire unit from scratch for both hardware and software. Which means it's going to take years to get a product to market.

It's much easier for Line6 or Fractal because they are already using DSP platforms with clear successors that should be more or less compatible with existing code.

 

[Orvillain]

I think that's key. Time will tell and we may not hear all the sales figures, but my guess is Kemper Mk2 isn't enough to pull people in (or back in) to Kemper land, and we'll see more people moving towards Line 6 and Fractal.

Early on Kemper had a sonic edge over the competition, but now they are looking to catch up. Maybe the new profiling sounds amazing and brings them on par with or ahead of other units. But the UX would still be dated and kind of old school, where others are going to big color touch screens.

And a lot of people will say they don't like touch screens, but the reality is most everyone spends several hours every day interacting with a touch screen phone, so it's going to be a lot more of a familiar experience than pushing buttons to navigate through pages of menus.

I'm definitely in a minority. I have a phone, but I barely use it to be honest. I definitely do not use a touchscreen once a day. I'm always sat at a beast PC either working, trolling, or trollworking!

 

[Orvillain]

Some combination of peanut butter and ears going on there I believe .

You keep making these judgemental statements, and whenever people refute you, you just ignore the refutation, instead preferring to maintain your own prejudice.

Not liking a device and communicating why, is fine. Liking a device and communicating why, is also fine. More than fine. To be encouraged.

But asserting someone has shit hearing.... not cricket. If you feel the need to attack someone's physiology in order to maintain a sacred cow, more power to you I guess. But I aint interested in that at all.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Thank you for a level headed response. It might very well be. The type of lingo on this forum is obviously not something that makes me feel comfortable posting here, which is why I post very seldom. English is not my native language either so perhaps it's possible that I'm reading things too literally when instead it might be an expression. But when someone says something is bullshit, I take that as very serious. If someone instead says "that's not true", it's more polite.

I said it’s “bullshit” because you’ve taken the time to complain about us both here and over at TGP, without spending barely any time here interacting. I think that’s crappy behavior. I’m sorry if that hurts your feelings, or if you don’t get a lot of the nuances and sarcasm due to language barriers. But complaining about people you’ve barely interacted with isn’t cool in any language.

 

[Sascha Franck]

either working, trolling, or trollworking!

This is the way!

 

[Tanax]

I said it’s “bullshit” because you’ve taken the time to complain about us both here and over at TGP, without spending barely any time here interacting. I think that’s crappy behavior. I’m sorry if that hurts your feelings, or if you don’t get a lot of the nuances and sarcasm due to language barriers. But complaining about people you’ve barely interacted with isn’t cool in any language.

That's fair. But let's just say that it's not an easy crowd to get to know. I'll try harder I guess?

 

[OneEng]

You keep making these judgemental statements, and whenever people refute you, you just ignore the refutation, instead preferring to maintain your own prejudice.

Not liking a device and communicating why, is fine. Liking a device and communicating why, is also fine. More than fine. To be encouraged.

But asserting someone has shit hearing.... not cricket. If you feel the need to attack someone's physiology in order to maintain a sacred cow, more power to you I guess. But I aint interested in that at all.

I am afraid you are going to have to be content with your opinion remaining yours. My belief is that you couldn't hear the difference in a mix if your life depended on it.

I am confident you aren't going to change my opinion, and I am equally confident that I am not going to change yours.

I am surprised how sensitive you are to barbs considering the source.

 

[LP59]

Very possible you are right. I'm just trying to find reasons why the Kemper Player is somehow capable of those upcoming better profiles, yet the MK1 is not.

The answer to where the new cpu power comes from may lie in the use of the attached computer to create the "higher resolution" (whatever that means) profiles, not in the Mk2 vs Mk1.

Unless it's simply artificial differentiation to sell more MK2 units.

If it is (and we'll probably never know the true answer), can you blame them for asking people to buy a new Mk2 after 14 years of free upgrades to their Mk1?

 

[DrewJD82]

My big beef (which I will be totally vocal about) will be if MK1 users are NOT offered an upgrade to the new capabilities of the MK2. Since the DSP has not changed AT ALL, this is completely within Kemper's ability to do. Shoot, I would even be willing to shell out a few hundred to get them. Perhaps this is the big plan all along? New sales of MK2 may not be that great (beyond the previous MK1 sales rate), but imagine if a big percentage of MK1 users all shelled out a few hundred $$ for the upgrade?

That would make total sense to me; send your MK1 in, they pop the new-


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- I started writing that last night which took me down a rabbit hole of finding out what the "new" thing was, specifically, where I ended up at the Kemper forum and following that upgrade thread here- https://forum.kemper-amps.com/forum/thread/65934-upgrade-mk-1-mk-2/?pageNo=1

Sheesh. 8.5 pages of pure speculation with that one dude posting shit like this-

And then trying to walk it back after confirming this is 100% speculation and he has no actual working knowledge of any of this.

Oof.

That goal post move by the Kemper engineer in regard to aliasing was cute as well- @Orvillain will be happy to know they're looking for his input!

Not done yet though, get those guys moving that goal post just a little further!!!

And in the end I see the teardown video is the only evidence of hardware changes and literally, everything else that's been stated about the MK2 is subjective and/or speculation without Kemper confirming anything. This has been an eye opening look into the Kemper world, to say the least.

 

[Chocol8]

My belief is that you couldn't hear the difference in a mix if your life depended on it.

It depends on what you play. I know for a fact that I could easily hear the difference between my Kemper and Tonex, even in a mix context because I tested it before selling my Kemper. I am pretty sure anyone in the room hearing me play the two back to back, including non-musicians, could also easily hear the difference after I pointed out what to listen for.

I don’t get why people get their panties in a wad and get so defensive about this. It’s 15 year old tech verses 3 year old tech. Congrats to Kemper for making a digital product that lasted so long, but let’s not live in some delusional la la land pretending that there have been no audible improvements in digital sound in over a decade. It is simply not true.

 

[paisleywookiee]

That's fair. But let's just say that it's not an easy crowd to get to know. I'll try harder I guess?

That would be cool. I think everyone’s liking different perspectives.

 

[LP59]

And in the end I see the teardown video is the only evidence of hardware changes and literally, everything else that's been stated about the MK2 is subjective and/or speculation without Kemper confirming anything. This has been an eye opening look into the Kemper world, to say the least.

I saw that on the Kemper forum. It's embarrassing for Kemper, but they are doing this to themselves. I just noticed that the post you quoted that started that unfortunate exchange was also posted on TGP to start a Kemper Mk2 thread there.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Not done yet though, get those guys moving that goal post just a little further!!!

Given that this guy is actually working for Kemper, his responses are maximized embarrassments.
I mean, claiming that they never heard of the thing aliasing is either a plain lie or proof of them living in an alternate facts universe.