Since the beginning modelling has been very important where I live. Valve amps are not that common and pretty expensive, I've grown up playing where the vast majority of guitar players I knew used old zooms and vamps. I've witnessed a lot of them trying valve amps for the first time and hating them because they weren't as easy to play and would actively try to make the amp sound like their modeler. That still happens. I obviously 100% agree with the article, the part I find a bit funny is how this seems to come as an actual surprise and a new thing to some people.
John Mayer & The Coming Simulacra
- Thread starter Dave Lewis
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I agree, he can’t be bought off, and he has no reason to lie about that just to sell a plugin. If anything I think his departure from pop music is a big sign that he just doesn’t care about that shit as much now that he’s made it.
Sascha Franck
Goatlord
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Fwiw, why should anyone actually not prefer a modeled amp over the real deal - even if it's a model of the very same amp? Good is good.
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Ed DeGenaro
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Dunno ‘bout anyone but I’ll tell you in which situations I’ll prefer analog over digital.
Every time I wanna sum the same signal into multiples, like two amps printed at the same time.
Since they will arrive at the precise same time.
Worst case I have to invert polarity if one amp has an extra triode.
Same reason I don’t use the built in IRs on the Soldano x88/Fryette Gpdi ir/TK Imperial pre.
Caveat. This is obviously not an issue with things like the AxeFx that has multiple amps, or even the Kemper doing 2 passes with constant latency on or plug ins.
ChordInversion
Roadie
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I really, really don't care for using plugins at all, so that could be part of why I don't even know who is making what in that space any more. I have Amplitube, which I bought before I realized IK had that whole "figure out your input gain by ear, and pretend that amps don't respond differently to different guitars" thing. I just don't generally want to play in a room sitting at a desk looking at a computer screen. For other people I know, that's totally normal.
I also don't care whether other people, especially pros, think my gear is the best or even any good at all. Which is why these sorts of statements amuse me. I know they work on a lot of people, ones who wait for permission from an authority figure to like something that hasn't really changed all that much from the time before the authority figure blessed it.
I also don't care whether other people, especially pros, think my gear is the best or even any good at all. Which is why these sorts of statements amuse me. I know they work on a lot of people, ones who wait for permission from an authority figure to like something that hasn't really changed all that much from the time before the authority figure blessed it.
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Jarick
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I enjoyed reading Josh's article enough to follow his Substack. It was thoughtful and frankly I prefer reading long form articles to scrolling through social media algorithm slop.
His observation on people trying to recreate the simulation with real gear was interesting. I remember years ago I got the chance to play a Friedman BE-100 for the first time in real life. It was my favorite amp in the Fractal and Helix world. Plugged in and fired up and...I didn't like it that much. It was WAY too loud and once I got it to a reasonable volume it sounded kind of fizzy.
Last year I got my dream tube amp which was the Friedman JJ Junior. Same thing, it's crazy loud and through my speaker cab it sounds kind of boxy and fizzy at low volumes. I like it a lot more through a reactive load into an IR and effects, but at that point we're only a small bit off the digital model. So I end up playing the simulation far more than the real thing out of convenience and it fits my use case better.
Final thought is on real things...I have the thread where I'm rediscovering my CD collection and going back to record shops to look for music. It's not convenient, it's more expensive, it's more work...but it's more meaningful. Every physical CD I pick up (and I've ripped probably 100 now) spurs memories that have been hidden away for decades. It's exciting to be honest, and I've listened to more music in the last two weeks than I have in the previous six months.
Josh is about the same age as me. We both grew up without the internet, before the digital revolution. If you wanted a new book you needed to go to the library or book store. If you wanted new music you had to go to the store and find a copy of the album. Now we have access to everything in seconds, but the unintended consequence is we have almost no attachment to these things anymore.
Going back to guitar, how do you truly have your own sound if you play through the same digital gear as everyone else? It's extremely convenient of course, but are you attached to it? Or are you better served with an imperfect rig made up of what you've physically collected and tailored to your playing?
Great questions, I think. Probably something I really need to ponder. Have I lost my connection to guitar playing in large part because I'm only ever running through digital gear?
His observation on people trying to recreate the simulation with real gear was interesting. I remember years ago I got the chance to play a Friedman BE-100 for the first time in real life. It was my favorite amp in the Fractal and Helix world. Plugged in and fired up and...I didn't like it that much. It was WAY too loud and once I got it to a reasonable volume it sounded kind of fizzy.
Last year I got my dream tube amp which was the Friedman JJ Junior. Same thing, it's crazy loud and through my speaker cab it sounds kind of boxy and fizzy at low volumes. I like it a lot more through a reactive load into an IR and effects, but at that point we're only a small bit off the digital model. So I end up playing the simulation far more than the real thing out of convenience and it fits my use case better.
Final thought is on real things...I have the thread where I'm rediscovering my CD collection and going back to record shops to look for music. It's not convenient, it's more expensive, it's more work...but it's more meaningful. Every physical CD I pick up (and I've ripped probably 100 now) spurs memories that have been hidden away for decades. It's exciting to be honest, and I've listened to more music in the last two weeks than I have in the previous six months.
Josh is about the same age as me. We both grew up without the internet, before the digital revolution. If you wanted a new book you needed to go to the library or book store. If you wanted new music you had to go to the store and find a copy of the album. Now we have access to everything in seconds, but the unintended consequence is we have almost no attachment to these things anymore.
Going back to guitar, how do you truly have your own sound if you play through the same digital gear as everyone else? It's extremely convenient of course, but are you attached to it? Or are you better served with an imperfect rig made up of what you've physically collected and tailored to your playing?
Great questions, I think. Probably something I really need to ponder. Have I lost my connection to guitar playing in large part because I'm only ever running through digital gear?
Sascha Franck
Goatlord
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It's no different than with analog stuff. I'm the player and I tweak the knobs. And that's it.
Ed DeGenaro
Shredder
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Plus even with identical settings the tone follows the player.
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ChordInversion
Roadie
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I think those are indeed really good questions. For me, the digital gear opens the door to the dynamic you're talking about, but it doesn't make it a fait accompli. It just requires some awareness. It is very easy to go down exactly the path thatg you describe. And as regards CDs, I went back to listening to music in full albums off of physical media for reasons that resonate with what you said as well.
I suspect we're of a similar age. The way I remember it, some people flipped gear like crazy back in the day, restlessly swapping out amps, pedals, pickups, speakers, and tubes. I can remember one guy whose basic sound rarely changed all that much while he went through all those different iterations. But that didn't slow him down. The sheer number pf tube screamer variants he went through, never having more than two on hand (and then only briefly) to help him realize that they really weren't all that different.
As far as your Friedman example goes, you're right, but to me that speaks to the glory of modeling. Wr can get very close to sounds that had previously been impossible at non-ear-splitting volumes. Yes, that constitutes a form of 'disconnect,' but...give me all of that disconnect. I'll take seconds. I fully expect many tube amps to be way too loud for me when they start sounding like how I choose to dial them in on a modeler (and likewise, for them to sound underwhelming to my ears at lower volumes). That's why I use a modeler.
ChordInversion
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I agree with that notion as well. You're still making the choices. You just get to do it with a broader starting point. The modeler gives you what the amp and effects section of guitar shop used to. And after all, we won't all dial in an AC30 the same way (which is part of why I don't care for captures).
paisleywookiee
Goatlord
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I played the Mark IIC+ and 90’s Recto reissues yesterday, as well as the Mark VII. Absolutely glorious stuff, no doubt. But damn, they just don’t give up the goods until at least 100dB, IMO.
So then you go to a 25w, but that’s every bit a compromise as modeling can be. Difference being that modelers are more flexible, and often still significantly cheaper.
So then you go to a 25w, but that’s every bit a compromise as modeling can be. Difference being that modelers are more flexible, and often still significantly cheaper.
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And never give up the goods.
paisleywookiee
Goatlord
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I disagree. Fractal stuff is pretty satisfying to play at this point, particularly through a good amplification system.
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It aint a Mark V cranked.
paisleywookiee
Goatlord
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Right. It’s a modeler. I didn’t claim it to be the same experience. But as I already said a mark five cranked isn’t practical for many people in their use case.
JiveTurkey
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I choose "Why not both?"
FAS is top tier. Full stop. Through my wedge or through my Fender FR turd; it's as good as it gets for amp modeling. And it's good.
I love my amps too. The III is a bit hard to handle at home as that volume control is sensitive. The Multiwatt and Mk V can be played at home volumes super easily. Unless we're talking apartment levels with a jerkface for a neighbor.
FAS is top tier. Full stop. Through my wedge or through my Fender FR turd; it's as good as it gets for amp modeling. And it's good.
I love my amps too. The III is a bit hard to handle at home as that volume control is sensitive. The Multiwatt and Mk V can be played at home volumes super easily. Unless we're talking apartment levels with a jerkface for a neighbor.
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Ed DeGenaro
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That’s what I used to think as well.
I used to hate small amps, they didn’t have the oomph, the bottom end etc…
Along the way I started to dislike the “mwah” sound of 4x12s. Actually even 2x12s.
Once I got into 1x12s for close miking I started messing with lower volumes and really got into El84 amps. High gainers though.
To me the MkV25 is far from a compromise, actually like it so much more than the big brother I had.
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What? You don't like cute little kisses to your butt cheeks? What?
MirrorProfiles
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I'd be thrilled if I could long off all my amps and do everything digitally.
Digital is a trade off, no matter how good and fun it is to play. It's a different experience and always will be. I enjoy it too.
I also enjoy 4x12’s arguably more than any one amp. For me it’s non-negotiable with an amp (assuming i’m not using a load box), unless it’s deliberately some kind of combo amp that’s designed around a smaller cab+speaker
Digital is a trade off, no matter how good and fun it is to play. It's a different experience and always will be. I enjoy it too.
I also enjoy 4x12’s arguably more than any one amp. For me it’s non-negotiable with an amp (assuming i’m not using a load box), unless it’s deliberately some kind of combo amp that’s designed around a smaller cab+speaker
![[Nathan]](/data/avatars/s/0/613.jpg?1726885163){kind=avatar}
