John Mayer & The Coming Simulacra

[ChordInversion]

We have available to us an embarrassment of riches when it comes to guitar sound. Some of us insist on railing against it, even though nobody is taking away what they prefer. Some seem to want to believe that with guitar gear, as in some fantasy novel in which all the greatest swords were made millennia ago, never to be duplicated. By this thinking, "great tone" simply must be the product of the arcane and lost (and it's fun to psychoanalyze this position).

Meanwhile, it appears some people are waiting for those in whom they imbue authority give them permission to like the digital gear. No players I know, but that marketing copy sure works on someone.

 

[Orvillain]

We have available to us an embarrassment of riches

And this is an amazing place to be, truly. Versus in the 1960's when you had what .... a few amp manufacturers????

 

[FuzzyAce]

And this is an amazing place to be, truly. Versus in the 1960's when you had what .... a few amp manufacturers????

And most modern amps are all based off those designs.
With some tweaks of course.

 

[metropolis_4]

The only part that made me roll my eyes was when he said Fractal raised the bar, but NDSP took it to the next level

It’s a depressing thought he brings up, but I think there is a lot of truth in it. Somewhere in the world a kid is going to come across a real Plexi and he’s gonna try to make it sound like what he’s heard from a digital Plexi model. Using reality to emulate an emulation because the emulation has become reality.

But I do think there are people who want things, not non-things. And I think people will swing back the other way and realize what we’ve missed by replacing all our things with non-things. Non-things can be great and very convenient, but there’s something about a real tangible thing that ages with us and becomes a real part of our life that I think we miss on some level and always come back to. Maybe not all things, but some things (and I’m not talking about tube amps vs digital).

Look, i like JHS. I really do.

But this is an ad copy.

Ad copy for what? None of his company’s products are involved

 

[JiveTurkey]

I'm not reading that.

 

[FuzzyAce]

But I do think there are people who want things, not non-things. And I think people will swing back the other way and realize what we’ve missed by replacing all our things with non-things. Non-things can be great and very convenient, but there’s something about a real tangible thing that ages with us and becomes a real part of our life that I think we miss on some level and always come back to. Maybe not all things, but some things (and I’m not talking about tube amps vs digital).

Yeah, it's like a pendulum. I've seen this in the younger generation, especially with my nieces and nephews. They're intrigued and collect vinyls and even tapes. Some of it is trying to understand the past and how we got here, but a big part is just having the physical media in your hands to read and listen to in a different way. It's all new to them.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The only part that made me roll my eyes was when he said Fractal raised the bar, but NDSP took it to the next level

Devils advocate and all that, but Neural DSP really put amp modelling in front of a LOT more people who otherwise weren't interested - especially younger less experienced musicians who probably wouldn't have been in the market for any kind of HW modeller, let alone something as expensive as a Fractal. I know of a ton of band guys who just went straight from real amps->NDSP, and the gateway was trying NDSP plugins like Nameless, Nolly and Gojira. Thats taking nothing away from Fractal and their own merits and achievements, but they have barely even attempted to do that. There's a lot NDSP get right, that any perceived negative behaviour shouldn't get in the way of.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Devils advocate and all that, but Neural DSP really put amp modelling in front of a LOT more people who otherwise weren't interested - especially younger less experienced musicians who probably wouldn't have been in the market for any kind of HW modeller, let alone something as expensive as a Fractal. I know of a ton of band guys who just went straight from real amps->NDSP, and the gateway was trying NDSP plugins like Nameless, Nolly and Gojira. Thats taking nothing away from Fractal and their own merits and achievements, but they have barely even attempted to do that. There's a lot NDSP get right, that any perceived negative behaviour shouldn't get in the way of.

You're probably right, but I can't help but think that Helix had an even greater impact and set the stage for most.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

You're probably right, but I can't help but think that Helix had an even greater impact and set the stage for most.

Maybe in terms of HW, and also between Helix Native and HW owners. It's been a huge success for sure.

I dont think the number of Helix Native owners who dont own some kind of Helix HW is that big, especially compared to NDSP plugins. And comparing like for like, Metallurgy are absolute abandonware garbage compared to NDSP's plugins. I think NDSP just expanded into an area that Fractal or Line 6 haven't done yet, and did a pretty great job at it. For better or worse, they're generally the plugins that most other guitar plugins have tried to copy in the last 5 years.

 

[[Nathan]]

Leon,
The 1980s tv adverts for this were always Krona was big in Australia and now in the UK.
Was it ever sold in Australia ?

That’s on the cusp of my memory bank right there but I don’t ever recall seeing this ad or that margarine in stores here

 

[paisleywookiee]

Devils advocate and all that, but Neural DSP really put amp modelling in front of a LOT more people who otherwise weren't interested - especially younger less experienced musicians who probably wouldn't have been in the market for any kind of HW modeller, let alone something as expensive as a Fractal. I know of a ton of band guys who just went straight from real amps->NDSP, and the gateway was trying NDSP plugins like Nameless, Nolly and Gojira. Thats taking nothing away from Fractal and their own merits and achievements, but they have barely even attempted to do that. There's a lot NDSP get right, that any perceived negative behaviour shouldn't get in the way of.

So, marketing. They're great at marketing. I'll give em that.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Maybe in terms of HW, and also between Helix Native and HW owners. It's been a huge success for sure.

I dont think the number of Helix Native owners who dont own some kind of Helix HW is that big, especially compared to NDSP plugins. And comparing like for like, Metallurgy are absolute abandonware garbage compared to NDSP's plugins. I think NDSP just expanded into an area that Fractal or Line 6 haven't done yet, and did a pretty great job at it. For better or worse, they're generally the plugins that most other guitar plugins have tried to copy in the last 5 years.

That's why I said you're probably right, , I've not used NDSP plugins or hardware yet. Their plugin aesthetics are cool and I know that appeals to a lot of folks too.

 

[Whizzinby]

Making it to the end of a digital thread…

 

[Mongillo19]

Oh, we are taking what JHS as serious

 

[[Nathan]]

I found it interesting / a touch strange that throughout the whole eye opening experience jhs had, he never once mentioned their plugin experience with mixwave. How could he not draw some parallels to testing that software and being blown away with it etc.

I know the whole thing is a love letter to John Mayer co-signing digital gear so now the rest of the dinosaurs can do the same and fear no more. But it would have been cool for him to chuck in some stories or discoveries they made while doing their own plugins

I did the demo a while ago for the mixwave jhs collection and while those tones aren’t my bread and butter I think the modelling is top notch. It’s just a pity mixwave are at the top end of the price bracket or I would nab it

 

[FuzzyAce]

Oh, we are taking what JHS as serious

Say what you will, but imo he's had a positive effect on the industry. Just from his historian meanderings with pedal brands have been interesting and helped keep the art of pedals alive and in people's minds. Yeah, it's still consumer driven but at least there's substance there.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

So, marketing. They're great at marketing. I'll give em that.

It’s a big factor, but you’d have to pull wool over your eyes to deny the plugins are good. Let’s not pretend the plugins suck - they knocked them out of the park, and marketed them properly. I’m not sure any of the competition has made plugins that do that “suite” thing better than NDSP. And most don’t market them as effectively either. Nembrini/Mercuriall/Metallurgy/Audio Assault/Mixwave/STL/wavemind etc have all tried following that format and they’re all a bit temu by comparison.

In that area, Line 6 have metallurgy - a mediocre product that had almost no marketing. Fractal have nothing at all. So maybe they deserve some credit for actually making the right products to market in the first place.

 

[paisleywookiee]

It’s a big factor, but you’d have to pull wool over your eyes to deny the plugins are good. Let’s not pretend the plugins suck - they knocked them out of the park, and marketed them properly. I’m not sure any of the competition has made plugins that do that “suite” thing better than NDSP. And most don’t market them as effectively either. Nembrini/Mercuriall/Metallurgy/Audio Assault/Mixwave/STL/wavemind etc have all tried following that format and they’re all a bit temu by comparison.

In that area, Line 6 have metallurgy - a mediocre product that had almost no marketing. Fractal have nothing at all. So maybe they deserve some credit for actually making the right products to market in the first place.

I don't think they suck, but I also don't think they knocked them out of the park. I've got Nolly, and have tried a bunch others. They're good. They're just not "I'll never buy another Fractal/Helix again" good.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I don't think they suck, but I also don't think they knocked them out of the park. I've got Nolly, and have tried a bunch others. They're good. They're just not "I'll never buy another Fractal/Helix again" good.

Well Fractal haven’t got a single amp modelling plugin, so they’re already behind when comparing like for like. Helix Native is a great plugin, but it’s neither had the same kind of influence nor the same kind of mass adoption. Metallurgy were more of a response to what NDSP are doing, and they’re miles off. It’s quite telling just how much Metallurgy/Mixwave/Wavemind/Audio Assault/ML Sound lab/almost every other dev in the last 5 years is copying NDSP’s approach. They’re the benchmark, until someone comes and improves it.

IMO you’re seeing it through a very personal lens. They’re the “go to” amp sims for so many people in a way that hasn’t really been done before (Amplitube/S-Gear/Guitar Rig/Revalver were around before but didn’t really hit a home run). I know loads of other engineers who barely even play guitar but use NDSP’s amp sims regularly. I can think of guitarists I’ve recorded myself who have no real idea about recording themselves, but use a 2i2, garageband/reaper and a laptop to make their demos. There’s an audience that simply wasn’t there previously, they’ve convinced people that amp modelling is actually very good these days.

I get comparing the QC to Fractal and Helix but IMO, NDSP are synonymous with the plugin line first and foremost. The QC is a product that exists off the back of the success of the plugins. I don’t think Line 6 or Fractal are really in that race.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Well Fractal haven’t got a single amp modelling plugin, so they’re already behind when comparing like for like. Helix Native is a great plugin, but it’s neither had the same kind of influence nor the same kind of mass adoption. Metallurgy were more of a response to what NDSP are doing, and they’re miles off. It’s quite telling just how much Metallurgy/Mixwave/Wavemind/Audio Assault/ML Sound lab/almost every other dev in the last 5 years is copying NDSP’s approach. They’re the benchmark, until someone comes and improves it.

IMO you’re seeing it through a very personal lens. They’re the “go to” amp sims for so many people in a way that hasn’t really been done before (Amplitube/S-Gear/Guitar Rig/Revalver were around before but didn’t really hit a home run). I know loads of other engineers who barely even play guitar but use NDSP’s amp sims regularly. I can think of guitarists I’ve recorded myself who have no real idea about recording themselves, but use a 2i2, garageband/reaper and a laptop to make their demos. There’s an audience that simply wasn’t there previously, they’ve convinced people that amp modelling is actually very good these days.

I get comparing the QC to Fractal and Helix but IMO, NDSP are synonymous with the plugin line first and foremost. The QC is a product that exists off the back of the success of the plugins. I don’t think Line 6 or Fractal are really in that race.

I realize all that. My son only uses plugins to record (my plugins). I'm just saying that while the modeling is good, it's not Fractal or Stadium level, so to me, it's still very much worthwhile to use hardware, even just for recording. Not to mention their way of bottling this effect with that plugin, but can't use it in another (without a DAW) is super annoying. That's what makes Amplitube and HX Native much more appealing to me personally.