IK Multimedia TONEX

[Deadpan]

Anyone here using the ToneX Capture box. Does it bring anything to the table that a dedicated DI and reamp box don't???

One thing I find interesting, there is a jumper inside to change the impedance.

This may play with fuzz pedals better.

 

[BenIfin]

This is correct.

There was an update this morning too:

TONEX v1.10.2 (for Mac/PC)

What's new in version 1.10.2:

• TONEX
  • Added a Tone Model Version filter (available in both Home and ToneNET).
  • Fixed an issue with the cab lock in ToneNET.
• TONEX Modeler
  • Fixed an issue where specific capture names could prevent training.
  • Fixed an issue where re-training a capture could start multiple training processes.
  • Fixed an issue where the "Start All" button became unavailable.
  • Fixed an issue where the training progress bar could display incorrect jumps.
• General reliability improvements.

On a serious note Peter .... iOS version bitching aside:-

=> is there a reason that the Cab Block doesn't have built-in Lo/Hi Cut Parameter Controls ?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Does it bring anything to the table that a dedicated DI and reamp box don't???

it can’t output anywhere remotely close to a sufficient level for any actual reamping purposes. so it’s a waste of time unfortunately

 

[Chocol8]

it can’t output anywhere remotely close to a sufficient level for any actual reamping purposes. so it’s a waste of time unfortunately

Isn't it a passive box so the max output is determined by the input signal strength coming from your interface?

 

[Richard_G]

The box attenuates the signal (lower output than input). Unlike - as an example - the Lehle P-SPLIT III, which puts out what you feed it.

 

[Chocol8]

The box attenuates the signal (lower output than input). Unlike - as an example - the Lehle P-SPLIT III, which puts out what you feed it.

Most passive boxes are going to have some attenuation, especially if it is increasing the output impedance. I would think you could feed it a hot enough signal to get a guitar level output out of it.

 

[Richard_G]

I haven't measured the attenuation of the Tonex Capture box myself.

But slamminmofo did post these results from his test @ TOP:
- He used an Universal Audio Apollo X8 interface and Vovox Sonorus TRS/TRS and TS/TS cables.
- Line Output Level X8 (+20dBu, Sine Wave 1kHz @ -16.202 dB) = 1.2382 VAC (Measured TRS cable between Tip/Ring).
- Tonex Capture then put out 0.5801 VAC.

As he pointed out in his post there; Ideally, you want a reamp box that allows you to generate a reamp out level that reflects the level of your guitar signal as close as possible. Depending on your line output audio interface specifications, you might need to avoid units like the Tonex Capture box because it attenuates the line out signal too much.

PS: I don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing you - I believe you know more about this than me. I'm more like a messenger of sorts here, but also trying to figure these things out for myself.

 

[EOengineer]

I’ve used Helix for reamping a number of times. Because the loops are selectable between line and instrument level you get a lot of flexibility as far as interfacing with analog gear of all types.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

it can’t output anywhere remotely close to a sufficient level for any actual reamping purposes. so it’s a waste of time unfortunately

Interesting. I found their interface’s out way too low but with the gain knobs on the capture box I had no issues getting a hot enough signal.
Plus the 2 ground lifts are great.

These days I use the Fryette GPDI as reamp box.

 

[Richard_G]

I found their interface’s out way too low but with the gain knobs on the capture box I had no issues getting a hot enough signal.

But the "gain knobs" are controlling attenuation and not adding gain?

As usual, it's pretty hard to get any meaningful specs from IK:

From the Capture box manual:

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

But the "gain knobs" are controlling attenuation and not adding gain?

As usual, it's pretty hard to get any meaningful specs from IK:

View attachment 51499

From the Capture box manual:

View attachment 51500

They do but heck if I send +20 in the and want +12 into the guitar amp there’s no issue. Like on the Axe I/o where it’s just not happening.

 

[Chocol8]

Sine Wave 1kHz @ -16.202 dB)

Sounds like there was a lot of room to turn up?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Isn't it a passive box so the max output is determined by the input signal strength coming from your interface?

Yeah, it’s just that it attenuates way too much for any typical interface D/A levels, assuming you track humbuckers. Some radial boxes attenuate a lot too, as did a D.A.V Reamp I tried.

If you record very weak single coils, record close to 0dBFS, and have beefy D/A it’ll probably do unity.

But it’s basically impossible for it to put out enough signal if you record humbuckers.

There are many passive boxes that’ll do unity, it really just depends on the ratio of the transformer used. Some even have room for a small boost, like the Signal Arts/United reamp box.

Most interfaces output 16-22dBu. Some’ll output 24dBu, very few do more. Typically consumer grade stuff will be less than those values. I’d say that a reamp box can attenuate, but it should still be able to output 12-13dBu when feeding it a 22dBu signal. If it’s attenuating more than 10dB, you’re going to have a hard time hitting the amp hard enough to reach unity for all guitars and pickups. I’m pretty sure the IK reamps attenuate a LOT more than that. I remember trying the DAV reamp box (http://www.davelectronics.com/di and reamp.htm ) and it attenuates 30dB. Totally useless.

IMO the ideal is to have a 1:1 transformer, and then an attenuation knob. That means the user can get away with using some consumer grade stuff, but it’ll also play nice with pro gear.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I found their interface’s out way too low but with the gain knobs on the capture box I had no issues getting a hot enough signal.

Yeah, that’s the part where it falls short.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Yeah, that’s the part where it falls short.

Thing is the original reamp and the Radial stuff were absolutely useless for me since it needed an additional groundlift.
The Capture sorted it enough for me. So much so when I used it I just routed everything through it and even practiced that way instead of straight in the amp.

But that changed since the Fryette pre since it’s DI and reamp levels actually work as I need and so far ground loops been absent.

That said I’m like grabbing a P-Plit next week nevertheless.

 

[Sascha Franck]

So, excuse the possibly dumb question, but as I've never invested any time in Tonex, I'll still be asking: When doing captures, do you still need to go through IK's software process or could it as well be as easy as with Tone3000 when doing NAM captures, as in playing a testfile through a sound you're happy with, record that and load it into whatever capture generating unit (or online thingy as with Tone3000)?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

So, excuse the possibly dumb question, but as I've never invested any time in Tonex, I'll still be asking: When doing captures, do you still need to go through IK's software process or could it as well be as easy as with Tone3000 when doing NAM captures, as in playing a testfile through a sound you're happy with, record that and load it into whatever capture generating unit (or online thingy as with Tone3000)?

Gotta do it via ToneX software but the process is much better now. Only downside vs NAM is it’s slow unless you have the right type of GPU. Very possible to queue up a load of reamps and train them overnight now though.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Gotta do it via ToneX software but the process is much better now.

Thanks, I might have a look into it (as I still think about getting a ToneX One to replace my Amplifirebox - and I'd really like to capture my pedal platform patch as accurately as possibly as I'm very happy with it).
Still, kinda escapes me how things couldn't be just as easy as with Tone3000. Without any investigation time, I was running my own first capture in a matter of some minutes, the largest amount of those minutes spent waiting for the calculation to finish.

Only downside vs NAM is it’s slow unless you have the right type of GPU. Very possible to queue up a load of reamps and train them overnight now though.

Yeah, that's something I'm aware of. And I'm sure it'll be pretty slow on my Macbook Air. But then, I would really only want to capture a mere handful of amp stuff myself (for the most part some HX stuff, so I could use HXN, which makes capturing incredibly easy, at least using the Tone3000 method).

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Still, kinda escapes me how things couldn't be just as easy as with Tone3000.

Honestly, the Tonex software is a lot more easy than making a NAM model, even with Tone3000. It walks you through step by step and doesn’t require any DAW. The new version finally lets you audition sounds through an IR and handles all the routing whether you are playing (to dial in or check a sound), or reamping (either the training signal or a DI). The only downside of Tonex is it makes no effort to calibrate levels, which Tonocracy and NAM have both shown to be very easy and effective to implement.

IMO NAM would benefit from someone making dedicated capture software to walk users through the process without needing a DAW, but i’m not sure why anyone would make it.

 

[Sedaxel]

(Preaching to the converted on this forum but maybe someone from IK will give in) One aspect IK really should get a grip on (that can be retro-added to existing models) is the input level thing, NAM has demonstrated clearly how advantageous it is on a platform that has the same issues of everyone capturing using TOTALLY different gear and levels. When using captures on a HW device, having that parity between what someone hears in the studio, and what they hear coming out of their pedal is so easy to solve with metadata. Instead we still have to deal with guesswork and fudging around, largely on models where NO-ONE even knows what the original levels are.

100% this.

Until this is not addressed, for me it´s a no-go. Sorry, but I don´t want to spend more time guessing and searching than playing. And that´s where my Nano Cortex, even being less accurate, is so much more convenient for me.

And it also proves that all this capturing thing still has quite some time to get mature.