IK Multimedia TONEX

[laxu]

First experience creating captures with Tonex!

Setup:

• Guitar: ESP/LTD KH-V w/ EMG Bone Breaker pickups
• Amp: Mesa Mark V 90
• Cab: Bluetone 2x12 w/ Chinese V30s
• Mic: Shure SM57
• Amp direct: Mark V Slave out (tapped from speaker output), used 2x12 as load
• Audio interface: Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen
• Lehle P-split for transformer isolation and ground lift. Audio interface output 3 -> P-Split -> amp input.

First off I had a helluva time avoiding feedback, because I had my audio interface direct monitoring on. It took me a while to figure out how to get it all working. Basically "mute all inputs, add Playback 3 (output 3) to output over Line out 3/4" was the magic trick, but it was certainly not intuitive.

Setting guitar levels was not intuitive. Hitting the strings on the KH-V often made the meter max out so you could not just strum it and it would work. Instead I had to toggle my cable between the audio interface and the real amp to figure out the correct level, which often showed up as "too low" in Tonex Modeler but matched just fine for what the actual amp receives.

Monitoring can also be a bit complicated. Maybe it works in a more intuitive manner when you are not 1m away from the amp but have the cab in another room. I think something seemed a bit odd about this because toggling IR on seemed to have an effect also on what I heard through the real cab so maybe I'm doing something wrong still. I left the IR off just in case.

Anyway, the capture process went well and I got very good results. I'll likely do more today and move my mics because the positioning was a bit lean and bright. I'll try if I can get dual mic working because I only have two mic pres and one of them needs to be used as instrument input. I need to bring my Audient EVO 8 for this as it has 4 mic pres.

Being able to type in metadata while capturing was a brilliant move from IK! It saves so much time, as does the "New capture with same settings" feature.

I captured my amp first using a mic, then direct from the Mark V slave out. For slave out, I needed to connect ground on the Lehle, and leave it lifted when using a mic.

There was a gotcha: When the models finished processing and you go to "Finalize" them, if you did direct vs mic captures in between, you have to find your previous settings again to be able to compare. Having numeric values for input settings would help a lot.

Improvement suggestions to @IK Multimedia :

• Add a troubleshooting section to the inputs/output test section. So it's easier for people to configure their audio interfaces right. Maybe even guides for popular audio interfaces like Focusrite and Audient.
• Make the guitar input meter less sensitive to spikes like a hard initial strum.
• Show numeric values for levels so you can replicate them later.
• Add the ability to add knobs, name them and set their position in metadata. Now I had to type stuff like "G6, T6, M4.5, B4" into the model comments to mark real amp parameters.
• Make "New capture with same settings" its own button so you don't have to select it every time.
• Add some sort of color variation for amp pictures. Could be for example a little color box or stripe, or a different color tolex so it's easier to discern between e.g "Black Mark" picture but for each channel. Yes I know I can use another picture, but it would be better to keep it the same for coherence, and instead have some sort of channel marker.
• Add the ability to capture a 3rd input at the same time. This would be basically the "amp only" sound in case you use a loadbox with a line-out or have a built-in line-out like mine. It could then just generate two captures at once, significantly cutting the time it takes to make amp vs amp+cab captures.

 

[Progressive_disclosure]

First experience creating captures with Tonex!

Setup:

• Guitar: ESP/LTD KH-V w/ EMG Bone Breaker pickups
• Amp: Mesa Mark V 90
• Cab: Bluetone 2x12 w/ Chinese V30s
• Mic: Shure SM57
• Amp direct: Mark V Slave out (tapped from speaker output), used 2x12 as load
• Audio interface: Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen
• Lehle P-split for transformer isolation and ground lift. Audio interface output 3 -> P-Split -> amp input.

First off I had a helluva time avoiding feedback, because I had my audio interface direct monitoring on. It took me a while to figure out how to get it all working. Basically "mute all inputs, add Playback 3 (output 3) to output over Line out 3/4" was the magic trick, but it was certainly not intuitive.

Setting guitar levels was not intuitive. Hitting the strings on the KH-V often made the meter max out so you could not just strum it and it would work. Instead I had to toggle my cable between the audio interface and the real amp to figure out the correct level, which often showed up as "too low" in Tonex Modeler but matched just fine for what the actual amp receives.

Monitoring can also be a bit complicated. Maybe it works in a more intuitive manner when you are not 1m away from the amp but have the cab in another room. I think something seemed a bit odd about this because toggling IR on seemed to have an effect also on what I heard through the real cab so maybe I'm doing something wrong still. I left the IR off just in case.

Anyway, the capture process went well and I got very good results. I'll likely do more today and move my mics because the positioning was a bit lean and bright. I'll try if I can get dual mic working because I only have two mic pres and one of them needs to be used as instrument input. I need to bring my Audient EVO 8 for this as it has 4 mic pres.

Being able to type in metadata while capturing was a brilliant move from IK! It saves so much time, as does the "New capture with same settings" feature.

I captured my amp first using a mic, then direct from the Mark V slave out. For slave out, I needed to connect ground on the Lehle, and leave it lifted when using a mic.

There was a gotcha: When the models finished processing and you go to "Finalize" them, if you did direct vs mic captures in between, you have to find your previous settings again to be able to compare. Having numeric values for input settings would help a lot.

Improvement suggestions to @IK Multimedia :

• Add a troubleshooting section to the inputs/output test section. So it's easier for people to configure their audio interfaces right. Maybe even guides for popular audio interfaces like Focusrite and Audient.
• Make the guitar input meter less sensitive to spikes like a hard initial strum.
• Show numeric values for levels so you can replicate them later.
• Add the ability to add knobs, name them and set their position in metadata. Now I had to type stuff like "G6, T6, M4.5, B4" into the model comments to mark real amp parameters.
• Make "New capture with same settings" its own button so you don't have to select it every time.
• Add some sort of color variation for amp pictures. Could be for example a little color box or stripe, or a different color tolex so it's easier to discern between e.g "Black Mark" picture but for each channel. Yes I know I can use another picture, but it would be better to keep it the same for coherence, and instead have some sort of channel marker.

Please do share the captures when you’re content with them, I’m eager to get my paws on and try out more Mark captures!

Hard agree on your improvement points. It’s so much better than before but still a bit of a chore making a bunch of captures.

 

[laxu]

Please do share the captures when you’re content with them, I’m eager to get my paws on and try out more Mark captures!

Hard agree on your improvement points. It’s so much better than before but still a bit of a chore making a bunch of captures.

I will! I think the first batch turned out pretty nice, but I definitely want to tweak my mic placement a bit. When I compare them to using my favorite V30 IRs, the amp+cab captures do sound a bit thinner and harsher but overall not bad.

I only captured ch1 Fat, ch2 Edge and ch3 MkIV since I had those setup to my liking. I want to do ch1 Tweed, ch2 Crunch/Mark I and ch3 IIC/Extreme as well.

 

[Chocol8]

Make the guitar input meter less sensitive to spikes like a hard initial strum.

No to this one! You do not want the transients to clip, and that means you do not want the meter to hide the transients.

 

[laxu]

No to this one! You do not want the transients to clip, and that means you do not want the meter to hide the transients.

For me it is very excessive. Like if I hit my strings as hard as I can, my amp set to a pristine clean will not clip. But at the same input level, Tonex will report that it's clipping even when it audibly isn't, nor is it clipping in Focusrite Control. It just jumps to that extreme for a tiny moment.

I'd need to see if it does something different with passive pickups.

 

[Chocol8]

If the transient is short enough, your amp may not clip or the clipping may not be audible, but the Tonex could be clipping. Short enough and that may not be audible either, but it will impact the training.

 

[laxu]

If the transient is short enough, your amp may not clip or the clipping may not be audible, but the Tonex could be clipping. Short enough and that may not be audible either, but it will impact the training.

I will have to test again, but it did not seem like expected behavior to me, as it would only clip on that initial transient but if I kept hitting the strings at the same strength then the meter was in the "correct" zone.

I haven't tried my captures with the Tonex One yet but in Tonex software heard no issues.

 

[Dimiguitar]

Are they on Tone.net? If so, I'd love to check them out.

Thanks for the interest. These won't be on tone.net, as most are for commercial packs (a charity project of a friend), and some others for specific bands.

That said, imo you can get some of the best tonex tones by capturing free NAM profiles. I tried out a bunch of commercial tonex stuff, and minus exceptions, not much comes close to the best free NAM captures from tone3000 website.

Of course this is largely a matter of taste, but nonetheless (and I also think many of these NAM guys really know their shit, to be frank. I find there's a higher quality to trash ratio with NAM).

So if you feel like trying out some cool tones, that is what I would suggest doing. Test free NAM stuff and then capture what you like to use in tonex units. I have also done this for several tones.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I've only done two "utility" captures yet (one "through" capture as I wanted to only use the EQ without any amp for acoustics and another one to check whether I could capture plugins), both of them came out very low in overall volume and the gain of the plugin capture wasn't high enough, either. So I gather the input metering "headroom" for both (guitar and capture return) is set very low in the Modeler app.

 

[Progressive_disclosure]

Thanks for the interest. These won't be on tone.net, as most are for commercial packs (a charity project of a friend), and some others for specific bands.

That said, imo you can get some of the best tonex tones by capturing free NAM profiles. I tried out a bunch of commercial tonex stuff, and minus exceptions, not much comes close to the best free NAM captures from tone3000 website.

Of course this is largely a matter of taste, but nonetheless (and I also think many of these NAM guys really know their shit, to be frank. I find there's a higher quality to trash ratio with NAM).

So if you feel like trying out some cool tones, that is what I would suggest doing. Test free NAM stuff and then capture what you like to use in tonex units. I have also done this for several tones.

On this topic, does anyone have a guide or similar for making captures of plugins etc? I was thinking of solving the routing and couldn’t find a way with what I have available at the moment. I tried installing Blackhole on our Mac but it seems MacOS fucked up the privacy settings so it doesn’t work for me and I can’t get the OS to allow audio use for it.

Same with the stand-alone NAM player. Works in Logic Pro and MainStage only.

I’ve seen guides for using Reaper but would like to stick to my signal chains in Logic Pro if possible.


Edit: seems to work now all of a sudden, so guess I’m trying the NAM->Tonex rollercoaster. Gonna be interesting A/B’ing and then seeing if they’re better than the Tone.net-stuff I thought was OK earlier.

 

[laxu]

I'm now probably going to hear the Tonex capture signal in my dreams. I made 17 captures of my Mark V today:

• All 3 channels with a slightly different mic position, same amp settings as yesterday's set.
• All 3 channels with two cabs (Bluetone 2x12 V30 + Bluetone 4x10 GB)
• Mark IV Pentode (had it set to triode before)
• Tweed, Mark 1, Crunch and Extreme through two cabs
• The above as amp only from slave out.

Still would have Ch3 IIC mode to do, and if I want any captures of the Variac mode (it's nice for lower gain!). I haven't been able to test any of the captures yet.

The weird thing was how big differences there were in noise levels. For some reason Ch1 Tweed was super noisy, even though it isn't with a guitar connected. So most likely those captures will suck. I tried everything (ground lift, different power settings) but that channel for some reason was noisy with the capture rig connected, and the noise goes away by simply switching to Clean or Fat. The other channels and modes were alright, Mark 1 was on the noisier side.

 

[metallica86]

Back to Tonex land, was able to grab Tonex1 mint with good price
What’s pedal people use with Tonex these days? I’m thinking put it in the loop of Gx-10 for effect and drive

 

[Sascha Franck]

I’m thinking put it in the loop of Gx-10 for effect and drive

Should be decent, if you can put up with Boss' editing.

 

[Chocol8]

What’s pedal people use with Tonex these days?

I have been using mine with old school analog pedals. It has been a nice break from the all digital ecosystem.

 

[bucephalus]

I put mine into a loop on helix lt

Edit to say it can get a bit noisy though with some captures I am finding.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Posted this already, but here's my small form factor setup:

The key thing however being that I'm controlling the TXO via a Pirate MIDI Pico.
Otherwise this would be a substantially less capable setup.

 

[laxu]

Interestingly the noisy Mark V ch1 Tweed captures turned out totally fine! I still need to do ch3 IIC mode, maybe tomorrow.

Some notes:

• There is no need to have a guitar connected when capturing if you don't need to compare. Which is pretty impossible anyway if you are recording the cab in the same room with mics. I used my mic pres for two mics and set the guitar input to a non-connected line-in.
• When running into my Fryette PS-100, I felt I needed to turn the PS-100 presence/depth about halfway to get the right "oomph" to the sound that I remember hearing with the Mesa. Unfortunately my PS-100 seems to be acting up again so I couldn't test very thoroughly.
• Using my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME as a poweramp, the "amp only" captures seemed to perform well.
• I still have a lot to learn about micing stuff as I never seem to be quite happy with my results.

Overall I think the captures turned out pretty decent for a first try using less than ideal gear in a less than ideal setup. I'll build some sort of pack out of them and put them up somewhere when I get the IIC mode captured and all the metadata typed in.

 

[Chocol8]

• I still have a lot to learn about micing stuff as I never seem to be quite happy with my results.

This is a big benefit to DI captures and 3rd part (professional) IR's. I prefer to let the people with way more experience, better microphones pre's etc. do the cab micing because my skills degrade real fast once you get past "stick an SM57 on it".

 

[laxu]

This is a big benefit to DI captures and 3rd part (professional) IR's. I prefer to let the people with way more experience, better microphones pre's etc. do the cab micing because my skills degrade real fast once you get past "stick an SM57 on it".

I'd honestly probably get better results if I had the cab in another room where I can't hear it and could monitor just the mics. I just don't have the ability to do that so setting up mics becomes a very tedious "move, record, listen, move, record, listen" process when the amp is loud enough that I can't really listen to it via headphones in good enough isolation.

 

[Chocol8]

if I had the cab in another room where I can't hear it

Another room or another zip code? I don't know how loud you are capturing, but when I am capturing a NMV amp another room is not far enough! With my JBL loaded Twin in the basement, trying to capture edge of breakup or beyond, I am wearing ear plugs while waiting anywhere in the house! Even my NMV 50w Marshall and 40w Super Reverb captures were unpleasantly loud, and I really don't want to use a load box or attenuator while capturing so I get the real cab SIC baked in to the amp capture.

I think it would take a purpose built sound isolation room to be able to do the monitoring from another room at a comfortable volume.