Hitting a Wall w/ Alternate Picking Speed

[Byrdman]

Let me ask you something: What are your goals? Do you need or want to play something specific in any specific tempo? Is speed a fundamental part of the music you'd like to play?

Personally, while I have been playing some sort of challenging fusion stuff in the past, I never had to do anything really forcing me into whatever speed limits, so there's simply been no pressure for me to get too much involved into picking excercises. But as I'm doing all this as my profession, too, I had to care about at least some decent amount of accuracy. And at least a certain "ground speed" indeed comes as a byproduct of accuracy.

Then there's also something else: Do you want to largely play pre-prepared patterns and licks (or even 1:1 covers of whatever solo parts) or would you rather be going for "free, unlimited access" - as in: I can always play what I want/hear (obviously limited by a certain tempo, but still).
The latter has been vastly more important for me than raw speed, it's also rather obvious that the less you play pre-prepared patterns and what not (or the smaller they get), the slower things become. For me it was about finding a good balance between combining as small as possible blocks and still being at least sufficiently fluent. Higher max. speeds can obviously be reached using more pre-prepared things.

I played acoustic guitar for years and I have always wanted to learn how to solo. I know I should have tried earlier, but life, raising kids, paying bills, gets in the way of hobbies but now I am older, kids out of the house, etc and I can get back to some hobbies.

My goal is to finally learn how to solo and I have been really concentrating learning solos as close to note for note. I have been mainly concentrating on classic rock and if I can get the speed down for a few of Jimmy Page's faster pentatonic runs, that would probably be sufficient for 95% of what I want to do. I am able to improvise through various pentatonic shapes in the correct key, but I'm pretty slow and I want to be able to rip through a pentatonic sequence if I need to and adjust speed to create tension and release.

 

[Byrdman]

@Sascha Franck most of Page's stuff I'm looking at is in the 90-100 BPM 16th note trips, and I'm stuck in the 60-70 BMP @ 16th note triplets. Once I get that down, then I will feel like I don't need to concentrate on speed as much

 

[Sascha Franck]

My goal is to finally learn how to solo and I have been really concentrating learning solos as close to note for note.

That was kind of part of my question. I mean, you can solo without learning existing solos 1:1. Takes away the burden of bringing them up to speed.
Personally, I never wanted to cover any solos, so I only did that 4-5 times at all (when I had to, during studying). And apart from that, I roll my own.

 

[la szum]

@Sascha Franck most of Page's stuff I'm looking at is in the 90-100 BPM 16th note trips, and I'm stuck in the 60-70 BMP @ 16th note triplets. Once I get that down, then I will feel like I don't need to concentrate on speed as much

You got this, Byrdman! Cheering you on!

 

[Byrdman]

You got this, Byrdman! Cheering you on!

Thanks, man! I know I can get there, just need to put in the work. Last few days I have found a few different exercises for each hand and bursts. Working on tremolo picking with my right and some strength stuff with my left then putting it together. Hopefully between that, speed bursts, and jumping ahead of where I am comfortable in BMP like Drew said plus some of the other tips in this thread, will pull it all together.

 

[Byrdman]

Just wanted to update everyone, after working on this for a few weeks, my alt picking speed is starting to get faster and more accurate. Thanks for all the tips and words of encouragement.

The biggest problems I was having is getting either hung up in-between strings going in the wrong direction and/or not clearing enough when needing to skip over. I have been doing the tips everyone suggested and slanting more going in and out vs flat and hopping from string to string.

Thanks again!!

 

[Eagle]

Troy Grady’s “Cracking the Code” channel on YouTube has everything you need.

https://youtube.com/@troygrady?si=mbQJmL7vlhfWN_N6

 

[Byrdman]

Troy Grady’s “Cracking the Code” channel on YouTube has everything you need.

https://youtube.com/@troygrady?si=mbQJmL7vlhfWN_N6

Yeah Troy's channel is great. I have watched all the episodes of "Cracking The Code", but I probably need to go back and watch them again plus some of his other videos based on it.

I have been watching Ben Eller and he covers a lot of TG's stuff there too. I personally find him more entertaining with his "Wankshop" videos, he cracks me up with jokes and whatnot.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Since you mentioned sextuplets (16th note triplets), when I got serious in wanting to up my abilities, one of the first things I wanted to focus on was triplets, because there's so many cool riffs in solos that are triplet-based: Godzilla has a very cool-sounding one, for example. But I also wanted to get my triplet/alt picking really accurate. And since I'm a huge Dream Theater fan, one song I started with was Overture 1928.

It has this very basic, 1-note (open D), sextuplet riff that opens the song, and then a bit later, a descending sextuplet riff right down the A major scale. So I simply set the metronome at a slow speed in which I could play triplets on the open D, perfectly even, accenting every 3rd note. Which means the accents alternate between being on a downstroke, then up stroke.

Since I tend to start just about everything I play with a downstroke, the first thing I had to get was those upstroke accents to sound the same as the ones on the downstroke. Just sat there... da da dah, da da dah, etc. And gradually sped up the bpm. Then I'd switch to starting on an upstroke. My thinking was to first get my picking accurate, then start adding notes.

And I still go back to basic triplet riffs and practice them very slowly, paying extra attention to those accents and keeping each note in time, because even though I can play those 2 riffs up to speed now, they're still not completely accurate. Which is just something I wanna be able to do.

I'm working on this one ascending Petrucci riff from Blind Faith (off 6 Degrees), and it's faster than I can pick! (sextuplets @ 125!)
But the damn riff sounds so fucking amazing because his articulation, timing, and accents are absolutely perfect. So while I may never be able to play it, it's one I like to practice to work on getting my timing tight/tighter. And it's almost all downstroke outside string changes (backward pick slant), so other than the speed, it's an easy type of sextuplet ascending riff, relatively speaking.

 

[Byrdman]

Since you mentioned sextuplets (16th note triplets), when I got serious in wanting to up my abilities, one of the first things I wanted to focus on was triplets, because there's so many cool riffs in solos that are triplet-based: Godzilla has a very cool-sounding one, for example. But I also wanted to get my triplet/alt picking really accurate. And since I'm a huge Dream Theater fan, one song I started with was Overture 1928.

It has this very basic, 1-note (open D), sextuplet riff that opens the song, and then a bit later, a descending sextuplet riff right down the A major scale. So I simply set the metronome at a slow speed in which I could play triplets on the open D, perfectly even, accenting every 3rd note. Which means the accents alternate between being on a downstroke, then up stroke.

Since I tend to start just about everything I play with a downstroke, the first thing I had to get was those upstroke accents to sound the same as the ones on the downstroke. Just sat there... da da dah, da da dah, etc. And gradually sped up the bpm. Then I'd switch to starting on an upstroke. My thinking was to first get my picking accurate, then start adding notes.

And I still go back to basic triplet riffs and practice them very slowly, paying extra attention to those accents and keeping each note in time, because even though I can play those 2 riffs up to speed now, they're still not completely accurate. Which is just something I wanna be able to do.

I'm working on this one ascending Petrucci riff from Blind Faith (off 6 Degrees), and it's faster than I can pick! (sextuplets @ 125!)
But the damn riff sounds so fucking amazing because his articulation, timing, and accents are absolutely perfect. So while I may never be able to play it, it's one I like to practice to work on getting my timing tight/tighter. And it's almost all downstroke outside string changes (backward pick slant), so other than the speed, it's an easy type of sextuplet ascending riff, relatively speaking.

I'm not a big DT fan, but I do appreciate what they do. I listened to Overture 1929 yesterday and that is a pretty good descending run in the solo.

I have been working on the same thing, just with Led Zep's Good Times, Bad Times. The solo has 1/16th note ascending trips at 92-93 BPM and I'm about 85%-90%. It also has a good descending run at the end in the callbacks I'm slowly working my way up on that one too. I'm going to try the 1 note sextuplet this week and speed it up to see if it helps any.

I know I am getting faster and more accurate with my alt picking, but the gains never happen as quickly as you want them to. A month ago I could barely do my LZ run at 65%-70% and now I'm up to 80%-85% pretty consistently and 90% off an on.

Some days it seems you are moving forward perfectly and then some days it's like someone kicks you in the balls and you cant get anything right, lol...

 

[mbenigni]

This gets back to what Drew said about practicing faster than you’re able, and to your mention of tremolo picking. I spent years trying to get my straight technique where I wanted it by slowly advancing the metronome, but ultimately made more progress by turning the metronome off, getting the right hand going at an arbitrarily fast rate (essentially, tremolo picking) and then getting the left hand in sync with that. This faster rate of picking is going to differ slightly from your straight technique, at least at first. Think of it as extended technique, analogous to singing falsetto when you need to.

Then, work on slowing this extended picking technique down so that the tempo is more controlled, and the technique is more reliable. The ultimate goal would be to get your straight technique and extended technique to meet in the middle, so that you can play intentionally at any tempo.

 

[DrewJD82]

The biggest problems I was having is getting either hung up in-between strings going in the wrong direction and/or not clearing enough when needing to skip over. I have been doing the tips everyone suggested and slanting more going in and out vs flat and hopping from string to string.

Thanks again!!

I know this is an older post, but Tom recently posted a lick from a DT tune that’s a great exercise for this.

I may have said it already in this thread, but depending on how many notes are on that first string, often times starting with an upstroke will put your pick in position to go to the next string in a more natural movement, so you‘re not trying to get up and over the string. For some reason I started using upstrokes for everything when I very first started playing and I still do now, it was odd to me to start anything with a downstroke except rhythms, but I saw where it became beneficial in regards to ‘playing between the strings’

And back to the motion of things being different at higher tempos, I just saw an example of it while I was warming up. mbenigni brought up a great point about getting the techniques to meet in the middle. In my case it’s getting my pick ready to go for it. I tried doing Grady’s pick slanting stuff but the whole concept was odd to me. A lot of that is because I was always starting with an upstroke and never had a need to get up and over anything, I’ve gotten away with alternate picking where others who start with downstrokes might not. And I just push straight through the string, the pick is going straight up and down for every single note and in between them.


(Excuse the verbal and playing slop, first time I spoke or played today!)

 

[Sascha Franck]

I tried doing Grady’s pick slanting stuff but the whole concept was odd to me.

Same here - but when you think about it, it's excellent, you just gotta get used to it (especially in case you're playing things where you have to vary between upwards/downwards slanting (which you can really only avoid in case you re-adjust all patterns you're playing, something I don't feel like doing).
However...

And I just push straight through the string,

... which is fine and which I tried to do as well.
But then one day you notice how this is getting in your way once any string skippin is involved. For me that day had come when I had to play "Heavy Cross" (Gossip) for a job. Those octaves aren't even particularly fast or anything. But there I was, miserably failing. Fortunately, good old Troy Grady came to my mind, because in one video he said that, using proper pick slanting, it wouldn't really matter whether you'd be playing on adjacent strings or skip a string.
And well, how right he was. 10 minutes after remembering I was pretty much done with "Heavy Cross", even if it felt sort of weird.
Fwiw, I haven't much worked on it ever since, but every now and then I just try to fool around with pick slanting and it defenitely seems to help improving certain things.

 

[Eagle]

Troy just described how people do it . You simply can’t switch between strings fast and clean without either economy picking or pick slanting alternant . Anything else adds a bounce that will act as a break. Most good players do a combination of both without thinking. It’s only when you trip over something that you notice it.