Hitting a Wall w/ Alternate Picking Speed

[Byrdman]

Up to this point, I have slowed things down, get the picking hand and fretting hand synchronized and then slowly speed things up. But that doesn't seem to be working any more or is it that I just need more time to get it?

Any exercises or suggestions? It seems everyone on YouTube University says they have the magic sauce, but wanted to see what you guys say before I start down that rabbit hole.

 

[DrewJD82]

You try going the opposite way and going past the point that actually makes sense, where you know you’re going to bomb it?

Petrucci recommended it in Rock Discipline within his metronome drills; you take a BPM you’re comfortable with, say 150, then push it to 175 or 180 and see how long you can hang for. It seems daft, but there’s a point where slow practice starts working against you because when you’re getting into higher speeds things change a little bit, whether it’s the mental or physical aspect.

The song I’m tracking now is at 177bpm, but over the weekend I set the BPM to 190 and practiced playing there (and bombing repeatedly) so I can make 177 more manageable…..in theory.

 

[Byrdman]

You try going the opposite way and going past the point that actually makes sense, where you know you’re going to bomb it?

Petrucci recommended it in Rock Discipline within his metronome drills; you take a BPM you’re comfortable with, say 150, then push it to 175 or 180 and see how long you can hang for. It seems daft, but there’s a point where slow practice starts working against you because when you’re getting into higher speeds things change a little bit, whether it’s the mental or physical aspect.

The song I’m tracking now is at 177bpm, but over the weekend I set the BPM to 190 and practiced playing there (and bombing repeatedly) so I can make 177 more manageable…..in theory.

Thanks, Drew! That's awesome advice and sounds like where I'm at right now. I'm going to try this.

Right now, I'm pretty comfortable in triplets at 120 BPM, and can sometimes push it to 130 depending on how far I have to go to the next string. After that, my fretting hand seems to drag and gets sloppy.

Another issue I have is, if this makes sense, there is a point where you have to get the picking hand in high gear and go from a regular picking technique to like a tremolo type technique. When that happens, everything goes to shit at that point

 

[DrewJD82]

Thanks, Drew! That's awesome advice and sounds like where I'm at right now. I'm going to try this.

Right now, I'm pretty comfortable in triplets at 120 BPM, and can sometimes push it to 130 depending on how far I have to go to the next string. After that, my fretting hand seems to drag and gets sloppy.

Another issue I have is, if this makes sense, there is a point where you have to get the picking hand in high gear and go from a regular picking technique to like a tremolo type technique. When that happens, everything goes to shit at that point

That absolutely makes sense and that’s the exact spot where things are different at a higher tempo than they are at slower ones, it’s those tiny physical movements along with the brain knowing exactly when to do something physically different, at a slower tempo you’ve got more time to actively think about all that stuff, speed up the tempo and you’re waiting for everything to do it an autopilot.

When my buddies were over Friday night for our meal & metal hang we were talking about trem picking and getting the hand going from normal riffing to trem picking within the riff, I’ve never really paid attention much to how much wrist/hand is working within that, but there’s a lot going on-

Skip to around 2:50


My wrist was ready to snap from the verses, so I’m literally massaging my wrist by limp-wristing the strummed parts, but you’ll notice when the trem picking part of the chorus pops up my hand is anchored right away, pretty much all the mobility ends at the wrist and my thumb/forefinger lock into place for just the trem picked part. My grip on the pick generally isn’t too tight, but those trem picked parts I’ll choke down on it a bit to keep it rigid so it’s not bouncing off the strings working against me.

Not sure if any of that’s help or not!

 

[mavrick102000]

What Drew said.

dAdditionally practicing speed bursts can help get you beyond your latest plateau.

Like Drew mentioned, pushing beyond the speed initially, while introducing no new tension is the key to making the next step. Your hands and mind need to know what that next level of speed is going to feel like to be able to adapt both hands to accomodate the next incremental speed increase. It will sound bad a first, but it will come together with practice and remaining relaxed.

 

[Byrdman]

Not sure if any of that’s help or not!

Absolutely!! Makes perfect sense! BTW, nice playing on that

 

[Byrdman]

What Drew said.

dAdditionally practicing speed bursts can help get you beyond your latest plateau.

Like Drew mentioned, pushing beyond the speed initially, while introducing no new tension is the key to making the next step. Your hands and mind need to know what that next level of speed is going to feel like to be able to adapt both hands to accomodate the next incremental speed increase. It will sound bad a first, but it will come together with practice and remaining relaxed.

I messed around with speed bursts a little, but I probably didn't give it enough time and went to something else. I'll try it again and see if that helps.

More than likely, I may have not been at a hard sticking point before, like in my 90 BPM stage, and was able to move through that easily with out them so I discounted it.

At the time, I saw a YT video where the guy was saying your ear has to be able to hear it and you mind contemplate it but eventually there will be a tempo that your mind will need to think of a group of notes as one unit. Is this legit?

 

[metropolis_4]

I’m no alt picking speed master, but I’ll offer two tips:

1. Tension is your enemy. While playing, focus on finding places where you’re holding/building tension and try to relax them.

2. Sometimes there are no short cuts. It takes time, hard work, and discipline to break through those barriers

 

[Byrdman]

I’m no alt picking speed master, but I’ll offer two tips:

1. Tension is your enemy. While playing, focus on finding places where you’re holding/building tension and try to relax them.

2. Sometimes there are no short cuts. It takes time, hard work, and discipline to break through those barriers

Thanks for the advice! It has taken me a lot of effort to get where I am now, but looking ahead, it looks like the hill is getting steeper

 

[duzie]

I’m currently working on this…

 

[Byrdman]

I’m currently working on this…

I'll work on that tonight! How is it going? How long have you been doing this exercise?

 

[duzie]

I'll work on that tonight! How is it going? How long have you been doing this exercise?

There are 4 videos in the series, each building on the previous video.
I’ve been rotating through them for 3-4 weeks.
There was an initial learning curve of the patterns.
I have days where it feels like I’m making progress
And then there’s the other types of days

When it’s clicking I can feel it !!!

 

[DrewJD82]

There are 4 videos in the series, each building on the previous video.
I’ve been rotating through them for 3-4 weeks.
There was an initial learning curve of the patterns.
I have days where it feels like I’m making progress
And then there’s the other types of days

When it’s clicking I can feel it !!!

If your progress goes anything like mine did, it was years of practicing to a metronome and never breaking past a certain point, I can’t remember what tempo but I know it was around 180, I was just stuck there for months. Then one day my fingers just went flyin’ and I was lucky to catch what was happening at the time, I was relaxed!

It’s one of those ‘ya can say it a million times but until you experience it, you won’t know’, as I thought I was already relaxed because I wasn’t actively tensing up while playing, but somewhere along the way I definitely was. That was the last hurdle to get over.

 

[la szum]

How many songs are most of us ever gonna play at 150-160bpm + ?? Seriously??

Not you, Drew. So don't answer.



I'd bet for most of us the vast majourity of material we play will be in the 60bpm (ballad) to 120bpm (foot stomping rocker!)

 

[duzie]

How many songs are most of us ever gonna play at 150-160bpm + ?? Seriously??

Not you, Drew. So don't answer.



I'd bet for most of us the vast majourity of material we play will be in the 60bpm (ballad) to 120bpm (foot stomping rocker!)

Slightly north of 120bpm lol

 

[la szum]

At 55 if I can't jump over the bar anymore then I am just going to lower the bar.

 

[Byrdman]

How many songs are most of us ever gonna play at 150-160bpm + ?? Seriously??

Not you, Drew. So don't answer.



I'd bet for most of us the vast majourity of material we play will be in the 60bpm (ballad) to 120bpm (foot stomping rocker!)

Doesn't it come down to what you are playing that also determines speed?

I have been working on Good Times Bad times by Led Zep, and there are 2 runs that are basically 8 triplets/4 sextuplets in 4/4 time. Even though the song is in 92 BPM, you aren't going to make it if you can only play 60-120 BPM in 1/4 or 1/8 notes if my math is correct.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Just to be clear, Here I'm talking about 16th notes.

My picking hand tops out at about 165 bpm. I'm still trying to get that Home riff, but it's 32nd notes @ 88 BPM. That's really fuckin fast!

If it's triplets, I have riffs I can play at over 200 bpm; Sextuplets top out at around 110. But as @Byrdman said, it depends greatly on the riff. The more linear it is, the faster I can play it. If it has lots of string changes, or HO/PO's, my tempo slows way down.

The solo in Erotomania has quintuplets @ 160, which equates to 16th notes @ 200 bpm. Someone recently had that song on their to-do list. Good luck!

So it depends on what division of the beat you're talking about. The tempo of the song (Dave!) has nothing to do with it.

Hell, My Sharona has a shit-ton of 16th note HO/PO's, but the song is at 146 BPM, which to me is a mother focker to play!

But I'm still pushing myself, since there are riffs I'd still like to be able to play.

Oh, and because very few songs have those wide string skips in their solos, that exercise Ozz posted is mostly useless imo. But he does advocate for 'speed bursts' as a practice aid, which I use a LOT.

 

[la szum]

If that's the case then why not play larger groupings 9like 16th note triplets) at relative tempos to what we
are actually trying to learn. That would seem more applicable and relevant. To me.

I don't see much merit in ramping a metronome up to 180bpm or 250bpm if we seldom (or never) play
anything above 150bpm or so.

It's that old "practice how you play" motto, or something like that. That way you get a feel in your hands for
the actual groupings (8th notes, 16th notes, sextuplets, etc. ) at the actual tempos you will use when playing
actual songs.

Sorry for all the "actuals."

 

[la szum]

Doesn't it come down to what you are playing that also determines speed?

I have been working on Good Times Bad times by Led Zep, and there are 2 runs that are basically 8 triplets/4 sextuplets in 4/4 time. Even though the song is in 92 BPM, you aren't going to make it if you can only play 60-120 BPM in 1/4 or 1/8 notes if my math is correct.

View attachment 11765

Oh, and GREAT fucking song! Listened to it earlier today.

1st song on their 1st album. You can hear how they wanted to come out with a bang.