Helix (with IR) vs tube amp with real cab

[GuitarJon]

Now that I'm using real speakers I wanted to to go to the next level with my amp vs modeler comparisons. So I figured, why not compare a real tube amp rig with the real cab (Celestion V-Type) vs a model in the Helix with an IR that I shot of that same setup?

In the past I've done most if not all my comparisons with a loadbox but never like this. I was kind of expecting the results to be a little bit different so this very much surprised me in a positive way:

 

[banned]

Cool vid.

I think you should go one step further and also do a video comparing helix and real amp mic'd through same guitar cab. (Helix driven through transparent, solid-state power amp)

In my testing - I could find little to no difference in tone and feel on models I tested. Note: things can change maybe at very high volume levels depending on how much juice the SS state power amp has.

I really think amp modeling is very very good now across almost all the major devices. The real frontier is cab modeling - "FRFR" only captures frequency response. When I play through different guitar cabs (different speakers, open back vs closed back etc.), the feel changes a lot. Plus you can be assured your 5" driver in your studio monitor doesn't have the same inertia, suspension, enclosure, mechanics etc. as a 12" guitar speaker

Fractal doing some additional work in this space - speaker breakup etc via physics modeling / fudge factors. However, I think with ML we should be able to replicate, with the right 12" speaker (please get rid of that 2" tweeter thing), almost the exact sound as a 1x12, 2x12...or even 4x12 cab in room (probably need anechoic).

This is most definitely a problem that can be solved with tech today. I bet L6 are working on this!

 

[GuitarJon]

Cool vid.

I think you should go one step further and also do a video comparing helix and real amp mic'd through same guitar cab. (Helix driven through transparent, solid-state power amp)

In my testing - I could find little to no difference in tone and feel on models I tested. Note: things can change maybe at very high volume levels depending on how much juice the SS state power amp has.

I really think amp modeling is very very good now across almost all the major devices. The real frontier is cab modeling - ""FRFR"" only captures frequency response. When I play through different guitar cabs (different speakers, open back vs closed back etc.), the feel changes a lot. Plus you can be assured your 5" driver in your studio monitor doesn't have the same inertia, suspension, enclosure, mechanics etc. as a 12" guitar speaker

Fractal doing some additional work in this space - speaker breakup etc via physics modeling / fudge factors. However, I think with ML we should be able to replicate with the right 12" speaker (please get rid of that 2" tweeter thing), almost the exact sound as a 1x12, 2x12...or even 4x12 cab in room (probably need anechoic).

This is most definitely a problem that can be solved with tech today. I bet L6 are working on this!

Yeah I bought a solid state poweramp just for that. Don't know if I'll do that with the Helix or another platform and I also don't know when I'll have time though...

 

[laxu]

I actually liked the Helix in the full mix a bit more for some reason. But they do sound pretty close, like pot tolerance and the things you listed could be the reason.

 

[Digital Igloo]

I actually liked the Helix in the full mix a bit more for some reason. But they do sound pretty close, like pot tolerance and the things you listed could be the reason.

Mandarin Rocker is also modeled after the 100W version, not the 50W. Loved the video!

 

[ejecta]

What’s typically a hint for me with modeling and amp comparisons is the harsh ish extended top end and extended low end with the mids and low mids being less warm as well in the modeling. That said they are pretty dang close and in a mix and passive listening it’s definitely a bit harder to tell. My main gripe with using all digital tracks in mixing with multiple tracks of guitars is they tend to smear and get a bit lost where as with real mics and amps that’s not as much a thing but again who can really tell. Use what works for you is what I say.

 

[Perrymusica]

Both microphones sound very similar, since the Helix is an excellent emulation of a microphoned amp. For me, the question is between the feeling of playing a real amp and what you hear through the monitors after miking it. That feeling of playing a real amp is the hardest to replicate, not so much what comes out of the monitors, where they are very similar.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Sounds pretty close, Helix just feels like it's missing the bottom end and it has its kind of distinctive static fizz in the top. The real amp sounds a touch more bouncy and dynamic.|

As much as it's a modelling trope, it's really rare for the models to be more dynamic/squishy/lively than the real amps. It's still impressive how close the character and tone is but I hope the quality of modelling continues to improve.

 

[sleewell]

if you'd rather play a modeler into the pa rather than a cranked up tube amp into a cab or two you should just check yourself into the looney bin now.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I thought we proved they sounded the same in 2017?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Seems like either one is cool. There seemed to be much more compression happening on B, might make it easier to play but kind of muddier as well

 

[pipelineaudio]

Seems like either one is cool. There seemed to be much more compression happening on B, might make it easier to play but kind of muddier as well

Was the IR of the same session of that cab mic'd up? Or was the IR different than the cab chain? Even if its the same settings, but the mics got moved

 

[Digital Igloo]

I thought we proved they sounded the same in 2017?

Well, Jon's 50W Rockerverb (year?) doesn't sound the same as our 100W Rockerverb (year?) so... what was I saying again?

 

[ian_dissonance]

if you'd rather play a modeler into the pa rather than a cranked up tube amp into a cab or two you should just check yourself into the looney bin now.

Been there, done that. Still going DI whenever the PA supports it.
Volume isn’t tone.
Play the song right and everything feels good.

 

[norminal]

Well, Jon's 50W Rockerverb (year?) doesn't sound the same as our 100W Rockerverb (year?) so... what was I saying again?

Now I want to hear an A/B comparison of your (Line 6’s) Rockerverb and the Helix model.

 

[Jarick]

I listened with AirPods and preferred A in the blind test because it had a bit more low end and extended frequencies. In isolation I could hear a little more midrange clarity with B but that was after I knew which was which.

 

[paisleywookiee]

if you'd rather play a modeler into the pa rather than a cranked up tube amp into a cab or two you should just check yourself into the looney bin now.

I'd rather carry a Stomp in my man-purse than a 45 pound head and a 70 pound cab.

 

[banned]

Can someone tell me if the cab impedance curve in Helix is baked into the power amp model? I'm trying to figure out what happens when I disable all cab modeling and plug into a real cab? Does the impedance curve still apply even when the cab model is disabled?

Doesn't bother me much if it does for now...but I'm after hyper accuracy at the end of the day and would like to know.

 

[holoholo]

Maybe I'm dumb but if you ever played an outdoor festival where you are primarily hearing a mic'd tone through the monitors and not the tube amp pissing spls into the wind, having complete control of my direct tone using digital solutions is way more valuable to me than muh toob toan.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Maybe I'm dumb but if you ever played an outdoor festival where you are primarily hearing a mic'd tone through the monitors and not the tube amp pissing spls into the wind, having complete control of my direct tone using digital solutions is way more valuable to me than muh toob toan.

Don't make me post that Jim Lill video!