Headroom with little amps - I want your experiences

[BahamaDada]

Hello hive-mind,

I want to buy a real amp again. A real real
amp. With tubes and stuff. Last time I bought a real amp was like... 2013? Since then all lunchbox (5w or less) stuff, hybrids (HT5) or digital (Katana).

I want to have 1 single good amp. Which it is... that's another whole story. But by now the question for me is: How much W do I really need for play out? As I stated in another thread I played an HT1 into an Engl XXL live and it worked. But it sounded shit (worked /= sounds good) and we only played a crude mix of punk and hardcore.

How much W do I actually need to compete with a drummer and play on a stage again?

Current example: I LOVE the Engl Fireball, but there are 3 versions: 100, 60 and 25. Of course the 100 is a safe bet. 60, too. Yet I don't miss lugging around 20kg heads and a 25 would be smaller, lighter and *cuter*. Thing is: I WANT clean cleans. I don't want raspy cleans, edge of anything, I want it clean (For intros and stuff).

Let's stay with the ENGL FB 25 as an example. Is 25w (with 6L6) actually having enough headroom to competer against a real drummer and be heard on stage?

Thx and Kussi aufs Nussi.

Quick edit:
Also in closer look MT15 and the 5150 lunchboxes. SC20, too, but that isn't a 2ch amp per se.

 

[Chocol8]

The answer is going to depend a LOT on the speakers and the drummer, and also what kind of PA support you have. The difference in speaker sensitivity can be the same as having an amp with 4x or 1/4 the power. If you want clean that is going to stay CLEAN and keep up with a hard hitting drummer, I would say 50 watts give or take. 25 if you have a stack of JBL's and a light hitting drummer.

 

[BahamaDada]

The answer is going to depend a LOT on the speakers and the drummer, and also what kind of PA support you have. The difference in speaker sensitivity can be the same as having an amp with 4x or 1/4 the power. If you want clean that is going to stay CLEAN and keep up with a hard hitting drummer, I would say 50 watts give or take. 25 if you have a stack of JBL's and a light hitting drummer.

Veeeery good point. See, that's why I ask others people and seek their experiences.

For this case, let's keep it to:
- drummer is as always: undynamic and almost always blasting full on (sadly not joking)
- "Regular" Celestion-loaded 2x12 (no 4x12 sadly)
- Not miced up, bc in a practice amps normally aren't miced up for me. Of course live is another thing, but less hassle micing an amp that already can hang with the voume levels of the drummer.

 

[newholland]

i manage(d) to do fine playing noisy punk rock with 15-20w with 100db efficient speakers (2). sat fine with a full sized bass rig and a human volume drummer.

add g12h30 annis, and low wattage gets loud fast. evm12l's help keep the mess under control. fane f70s are like the perfect midline between the two.

 

[Progressive_disclosure]

I love my FB25 but as a home player I have limited experience going that loud (two rehearsals with a thrash band in total, lol). It’s still using two 6L6’s though so it’s capable of making my whole room shake at 9 o’clock on the master using the big ENGL 1x12 cab.

Also since the FB25 has a line out after the power amp you could ”slave” an extra solid state power amp to run an extra cab if that would be needed for volume and spread, so there’s room for modularity in case some scenarios call for it.

Or you can run line out to an IR pedal to PA or similar. I’ve used my FB25 with studio monitors and wet effects plus dry through cab at home for kick ass noodling sessions.

I wouldn’t count it out! Also it has a super cute carrying bag.

 

[dronerstone]

Depends on what you're aiming for.

I sold an Ampeg GVT15H some years back. It sounded legit and was easily "too loud" for apartment use when turned up a bit, but couldn't handle a loud drummer.

Power tube saturation kicked in quickly, and with the volume cranked, it tended to thin out in an unpleasant way.

100W might be overpowering it, but I'd recommend 30W minimum (rather 50W) when you're playing rock music and need a thumping, decent-enough headroom platform.

Of course, speaker rating and efficiency play a huge role just as well. Keep that in mind.

 

[maddnotez]

Can get away with less and not all 50w amps are equal but for anything hardcore/metal i would want 100w personally.

 

[RaceU4her]

100w. id rather have the power and not need it then the dreaded "im gonna sound like muddy shit unless i back off my gain and bass and crank my mids which is gonna sound even shittier" situation

 

[GuitarBilly74]

You can definitely get enough volume out of a 25w amp, but headroom is a different story.

If you need loud crystal clean tones, it may not work. Low end tightness goes away fast too.
Also, if you're running delays or reverb in the loop you will notice they get dirty when trying to compete with a drummer because the small power amp saturates fast. I was in love with the SLO 30 until I tried to use the loop in a live environment.

In these cases I'd recommend 50w minimum. If you need a small high gain head that's lightweight and can keep up with everything the EVH 50w is hard to beat. Victory Kraken is great too.

But i f you are playing with amp distortion, don't need a tight low end and only run effects out front, then it's not an issue. They get loud. And obviously if you're mic'ing the amp through a PA then it's not an issue either, you can get loud through a PA with zero watts (DI).
YMMV.

 

[newpedals]

Hello hive-mind,

I want to buy a real amp again. A real real
amp. With tubes and stuff. Last time I bought a real amp was like... 2013? Since then all lunchbox (5w or less) stuff, hybrids (HT5) or digital (Katana).

I want to have 1 single good amp. Which it is... that's another whole story. But by now the question for me is: How much W do I really need for play out? As I stated in another thread I played an HT1 into an Engl XXL live and it worked. But it sounded shit (worked /= sounds good) and we only played a crude mix of punk and hardcore.

How much W do I actually need to compete with a drummer and play on a stage again?

Current example: I LOVE the Engl Fireball, but there are 3 versions: 100, 60 and 25. Of course the 100 is a safe bet. 60, too. Yet I don't miss lugging around 20kg heads and a 25 would be smaller, lighter and *cuter*. Thing is: I WANT clean cleans. I don't want raspy cleans, edge of anything, I want it clean (For intros and stuff).

Let's stay with the ENGL FB 25 as an example. Is 25w (with 6L6) actually having enough headroom to competer against a real drummer and be heard on stage?

Thx and Kussi aufs Nussi.

Quick edit:
Also in closer look MT15 and the 5150 lunchboxes. SC20, too, but that isn't a 2ch amp per se.

The drummer's heavy playing will be a considerable factor in your decision.

I had seen some (probably boutique) amps which have some kind of built-in power mode selection. It will be easier to use than buying an attenuator.

I don't know about the pricing of bigger amps, but you could buy something which is useful to you around 25w, with option of using a cab with it later on. This way you will be able to create more sound without having to carry a huge 60w amp everywhere with more tubes and transformers inside.

 

[laxu]

Thing is: I WANT clean cleans. I don't want raspy cleans, edge of anything, I want it clean (For intros and stuff).

Then you likely want the 60W version at minimum. The 25W is right on the edge there if it's not miced.

To me those higher power amps are more about how they feel to play rather than how loud they get. But for cleans that headroom comes in handy.

40-50W is IMO the "don't worry about volume" territory. For hairy cleans, 30W would do.

 

[newholland]

theres a whole lotta 'it depends', and i think people are touching on lots of aspects of it.

truth is, it really depends what you want, what kinda gain, how much, how much you just rely on a footswitch to go back and forth, your speakers, your band, and how aggressively you eq, and what other stuff you run in front or in a loop, if at all. i know as a diehard minimalist trying to minimize broken stuff at all costs, i use less watts pretty easily with my guitar volume. i used to use 50-100 watts for banding and it was primarily footswitch on/off for effortless clean and dirt with a stupid loud drummer- which i dont need now, but still keep a 10, a 60, and a 100 watt amp and i use all of them the same way- like an NMV amp with my guitar volume and tone, and never really mess with footswitches anymore- but i dont mind a little grit on cleans.

you can sure get a lot of what you need these days in a whole lotta ways- but i guess the main factor is what venues youre playing and the typical amount of reliable sound reinforcement. i know i seldom got/get that- so more is better with a master volume. but if you have good pas and soundguys- just adjust to stage volume and roll with what saturates appropriately with your stage sizes.

 

[Orvillain]

100watt for your needs.

 

[Eagle]

Almost nothing under 30w has clean headroom enough for a live drummer. But some are definitely better than others.
The answer to your direct question is no.

 

[BahamaDada]

First of all thank you all for the insights. That's what I had hoped for: Actual experience from people, that gigged (and maybe had one or two bad experiences as well - you learn the most from them).

I try to answer some stuff:

- I want cleans. Like "Metal-intro-cleans". Ready for being drenched in a whole lot of chorus. No "Blues"-cleans for this endeavor. My guitars are all EMG loaded (not all are the standard spiky 81, though).
- Some stated it may be possible with less watts depending on the amp, but the lows could be "untight". Very good point. I want tight sound. I hate loose and flubby sounds for Hard Rock and Metal. Tubescreamers exist, yes, but they don't help when the amp is already on the brink of "can't get louder". Tight sounds, yes.
- The cab I already talked about. 4x12s are not for me. A 2x12 has to do. I am not very into experiments, so probably I stay as vanilla as I can and choose some for of Celestion (V30 or else). I am this boring.
- The drummer thing: I just want to be independent on dynamic drummers. I played with good ones, that could do it all from gentle touches to full on thunderstorms and I played with some that were the Animal from the Muppets. 100% full blast.

To quote Laxu some posts above: "Don't worry about volume"-territory. Yes, that's what I want.

I don't intend to play super loud and I also intend to have the amp miced at useful occasions, but I just don't want to worry about "Am I going to cut through"?

 

[Snags]

Clean channel of a DSL40 stays totally clean for me when playing with an enthusiastic-but-not neanderthal drummer. Likewise channel 1 on the Laney Loudpedal (Martin Miller Ironheart version).

Both in a four piece, with a LOUD bassist, mostly acoustic other guitarist, and drummer.

I do mic the amp, but mostly so I can put a small amount in the monitor for the drummer when he's a long way from the amp, and to help a bit with spread in some of the weird-shaped venues we play. It's not actually necessary for FOH volume.

 

[metropolis_4]

What is your reason for going with the lowest wattage possible?

It all depends on so many things. I’ve played gigs with a full band where I’m playing squeaky clean on a LP with a 9 watt amp and it was plenty. That doesn’t mean 9 watts will work for you in your situation

 

[BahamaDada]

What is your reason for going with the lowest wattage possible?

Size, Price, Weight. With a big emphasis on the last one.

Yet I can get over all 3 if the solution for a problem is good enough. Let's say I don't miss hauling a JVM to practice every week. But at the same time doing that would be justified for myself (towards myself and my back) if the outcome is good. In that case the prefered outcome would be: I never have to worry about being too quiet or not cutting through.

When I had those bigger amps I never played really loud at gigs, but the headroom I had was cool to have. Notes were clear, riffs on lower strings were punchy and tight.

But if less does the job that'd be great news. That's why I am asking.

 

[metropolis_4]

Size, Price, Weight. With a big emphasis on the last one.

Yet I can get over all 3 if the solution for a problem is good enough. Let's say I don't miss hauling a JVM to practice every week. But at the same time doing that would be justified for myself (towards myself and my back) if the outcome is good. In that case the prefered outcome would be: I never have to worry about being too quiet or not cutting through.

When I had those bigger amps I never played really loud at gigs, but the headroom I had was cool to have. Notes were clear, riffs on lower strings were punchy and tight.

But if less does the job that'd be great news. That's why I am asking.

Makes sense. What style of music, what kind of guitars, and what is your typical stage volume level?

 

[Baba]

Great answers so far. There aren't many amps at 30 watts or lower, that can stay clean and loud, so for the most part You're going to want 40/50/60/100.

If you find the same amp that comes in a 50w or 100w variant, you'd be fine with the 50w version.