HAAALP with lowered tunings

[mbenigni]

Just like my grandpa taught me: "Eyeball it once, cut once"

It's like I always say, "If you want something done right, get over it."

 

[JiveTurkey]

@Eagle you got any tips for @mbenigni on this?

 

[Eagle]

The nut is most of the problem.
There must be no pinch on the sides at all . The strings need to be on with only a couple of wraps around the pegs and no overlap or loop knots.
Tune only up to pitch.
If this is all correct post a picture of the head and nut and another of the bridge.

 

[Steinmetzify]

@Eagle said it above.

I run an ESP Viper, not the same guitar but close. It’s in drop B or C standard all of the time.

I’m a drop tuned guy and a metal guy, none of my guitars are standard tuned.

For drop C and above, I run 10-52s, no matter the scale.

For anything lower, I run either 11-56s or in the case of my LP and Viper which are 24.75” scales in drop B I run 12-60s.

The nut NEEDS to be cut correctly or you’re going to have tuning issues.

Also, fuck not changing this thing; you can run Hipshot tuners with a plate and never drill a thing.

Get the nut cut correctly and change the tuners, correct string gauge and you’ll be fine.

If you do all of that and the guitar still won’t cooperate then it’s a piece of shit, $900+ or not. Write it off and get something else lol

 

[mbenigni]

Thanks @Eagle and @Steinmetzify!

This all makes sense to me. The nut is the biggest wildcard. I know this has to be cut and polished correctly, but exactly what “correctly” comprises is harder to judge - specifcally in terms of how deep any given string should fall into its slot, and how to shape the slots to account for string angle on the headstock side. In any case, it should do better once properly lubricated. If not, I’ll post some close ups as you advise.

As I said, I ordered those Grover locking tuners, and they’ve already arrived. Fit perfectly, no drilling. I really wish I did this a year ago and saved myself the endless headaches. Locking tuners are usually a given for me, but I got all worked up about the headstock weight on the SG; didn’t want to get into trial and error re: shaft diameter; yadda yadda. Silly. (Funny thing is, the 406c’s are “mini tuners”, so if anything, I suspect they’re lighter than the stock parts were.)

Unfortunately the strings (Trivium 10-52) are running late, but I should know where I stand in a day or two. I’m feeling optimistic now that those tinfoil “Marvel” tuners have been shelved. I really think this was the heart of the problem all along.

 

[TSJMajesty]

I didn't read the whole thread, but if I had a 24.75" scale guitar that I wanted in drop C#, I'd be looking at using at least 11's with a heavy bottom, and having the nut cut for those strings. And I always use lube during string changes at both ends. Also, I agree with Bruce's post about how to wrap the strings around non-locking tuners.

 

[mbenigni]

I didn't read the whole thread, but if I had a 24.75" scale guitar that I wanted in drop C#, I'd be looking at using at least 11's with a heavy bottom, and having the nut cut for those strings. And I always use lube during string changes at both ends. Also, I agree with Bruce's post about how to wrap the strings around non-locking tuners.

Thanks. 11’s will be my next step if I’m not satisfied today. (The 10-52s, allegedly/ somehow optimized for detuning, are out for delivery.)

 

[mbenigni]

Guitar is restrung and (almost) set up. It was immediately clear that the new tuners had helped immensely. Moral of the story being: trust your instincts. The tuners are fine; more than anything I'm just grateful they dropped in without any drilling. But they are super smooth, almost to a fault. You get the impression they'd turn in light breeze. And Grover has somehow managed to design a locking tuner that's harder to string than a non-locking tuner. On a bench, in direct light, with my old man reading glasses on, I cannot see the holes for the life of me. If I had to change a string at a gig... F it I think I'd just have to borrow someone else's guitar.

Of course the new string gauges meant starting over on setup: futzing with the truss rod (my least favorite part of any setup), bridge height, intonation, and round and round per the interdependencies there. The nut seems fine in terms of tuning/friction, but I suspect a couple of strings were cut a little too deep - I get a bit of string buzz at the first few frets when the action is anywhere near where I want it, and the whole fretboard is a bit "clangy". Still waiting for the truss rod to settle in before I make any rash decisions about that.

Adding a little truss rod tension (less bow) also seemed to improve tuning stability a bit. I think I'll always have misgivings about this very thin 24-fret neck, and the shape of the SG in general. As I mentioned, the headstock always seems to want to get out in front of me, and if I'm not paying attention, my inclination is to pull it back to where I think it belongs... which of course pulls the guitar sharp. :/ It's ironic that I bought this guitar specifically to smash away on heavy down-tuned music, and it's kind of forcing me to play as gently/ mindfully as I'm able.

 

[mbenigni]

Another minor criticism of the Grover 406c's: those tiny pegs draw your hand hazardously close to the strings you just trimmed off the posts. Ouch. There's blood all over the fingerboard now. Very metal, but equally annoying.

 

[mbenigni]

Necro-bumping my own thread. Guitar is... better, since adding locking tuners and going with slightly heavier strings. But not good. It can be "tolerated" in private practice. I could never gig with a guitar that goes out of tune this easily. I was really hoping I'd just play the crap out of it and things would fall into place, but it's not there yet.

String Butler (V1 Stealth) incoming. Then I'll start experimenting with still heavier strings... a different nut... a wrap-around bridge? "Epiphones are so affordable", they said...

 

[Eagle]

You don’t need a string butler if you fix the nut a get a good set up.

 

[JiveTurkey]

"Do it yourself" they said. "It'll be fun" they said.

 

[mbenigni]

You don’t need a string butler if you fix the nut a get a good set up.

Alas, I don't "have a guy" I trust any better than I trust myself - except to take my money. (And admittedly, I don't trust myself very much at all when it comes to properly cutting/filing a new nut.) The String Butler is a $50 experiment. If - as an isolated variable - it doesn't markedly improve things, I'll send it back.

 

[metropolis_4]

This thing has been more trouble than any Epiphone I’ve ever owned.

I’m using that Epi 335 as my backup. I’ve played it for the whole show a couple times and only had to tune it once or twice. Everything stock just like it left the store

 

[Gearzilla]

How stable is the neck?

 

[Gearzilla]

Here’s a counter intuitive take. SGs are somewhat well known to have a shifty neck. Heavier strings are going to exert more string tension. When someone frets a string the string tension increases. An SG is going to go out of tune more easily with a heavier string gauge while playing. Even with a nut that’s cut correctly due to the neck joint design.

 

[Eagle]

Here’s a counter intuitive take. SGs are somewhat well known to have a shifty neck. Heavier strings are going to exert more string tension. When someone frets a string the string tension increases. An SG is going to go out of tune more easily with a heavier string gauge while playing. Even with a nut that’s cut correctly due to the neck joint design.

If it’s glued in it’s not going anywhere. Instabilities are atmospheric sensitivity. It’s the nut and the setup . The displacement of a string to fret it or all of them even is not going to be a problem unless the setup is horrendous. Either way setup and nut are the fix.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

If it’s glued in it’s not going anywhere.

That's idiotic. If that were the case, relief would be the same with no strings vs. Strung up to standard tuning with 13s.

 

[mbenigni]

That's idiotic. If that were the case, relief would be the same with no strings vs. Strung up to standard tuning with 13s.

I hesitate to call anyone/ anything idiotic, but I do think neck stability is an issue with this guitar. 24 frets and very thin, it's definitely more "virtual whammy bar" than any other guitar I own. Yes, the neck joint is solidly fixed, but the neck itself is flexible. (This led me to question whether the truss rod was doing its job properly.) Either way, I can tell the difference between the strings going out of tune, and me pulling the guitar in and out of tune.

As for heavier strings putting more tension on the neck, yes of course, but I'm also detuning 3 steps, which should compensate.

 

[Gearzilla]

As for heavier strings putting more tension on the neck, yes of course, but I'm also detuning 3 steps, which should compensate.

Tommi Iommi

C# 9-42

Requires a light touch.