Fractal Talk

[dk_ace]

Yes it took a while for Fractal to get there - but when they did those reverbs are something else. Very musical.

Also the tools provided, modifiers, advanced settings, filters, LFOs etc available meant I was basically able to clone the Keeley Halo very very closely, down to the LFO phases, amplitudes, feedback network, filtering, etc - It's one of my favorite delay sounds (see https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/keeley-halo-take-2.185495/)

I thought the fractal reverbs were great on the standard back in the day. I should fire it up sometime soon and see how it holds up. I liked how you could set the pre delay for the early reflections and the pre delay for the tail independent of one another, that allowed for some huge reverb sounds that never got in the way of your dry sound or had a weird initial disconnect.

I don’t think I went as far as you did for the exact clone of the halo, I’ve been meaning to try that. For a while I used the halo clone effect type in the multi delay block, but I’ve since switched to a thing I rolled myself in the dual delay that is exactly the sound I was looking for. It’s not the halo thing though.

D

 

[dk_ace]

We definitely have different perspectives on this. I find preset jumping within a song live to be a nightmare on pretty much any unit. I prefer snapshots or scenes that give me the same amps at the same volumes with the same type of EQ, and then let me drop effects and slight knob tweaks in and out from there.

I do bug DI about adding more than eight snapshots to the stadium, but honestly keeping track of that many foot presses within one song is a little overwhelming for me. I do not like to tap dance when I'm trying to concentrate on playing guitar, locking into my bandmates and also feeling the audience.

Who said anything about the eq or volume changing?

For me the primary use is dsp heavy stuff that doesn’t fit in my main patch. There’s this amazing ambient delay in plex delay, can’t remember the name of it, but it’s the most absurd dsp hog imaginable and nothing else sounds like it. It would never fit in my main patch. But if I want to go to it in a live set I can just clone my main patch, kill all the stuff I wouldn’t need for that delay tone and have that plex delay block. No gaps in switching, super easy to program in for no tap dancing, etc.

With Helix I was always compromised on what would fit into the preset, could never fit everything I wanted. I was always out of footswitches or dsp.

On FM9 I rarely am short footswitches, dsp is the limiter. But with the preset switching being so fast that’s no big deal.

D

 

[mikah912]

I can’t understand how anyone could think that helix has matched the fractal cloud verbs. I could get an approximation of them, but it takes a parallel path with the vowel effect filter and some other tricks (Cordy figured out the vowel thing, I can’t take any credit for that but it works). There’s no single model that comes close to that sound in helix. I don’t really use the cloud verbs much though. I can’t remember what effect types my two favorites use as a base. Basically, they are my two favorite Mercury 7 sounds that I copied and improved in Ventris and then copied and improved again in Fractal.

My time the other day on the hardware was simpler though. I didn’t try to deep edit and get the perfect thing in my head, I was just looking for really good stuff from the hardware that I could get running quickly. I went through like 8 helix models and did a lot of knob twiddling looking for a good ambient verb. Got nothing I really liked. In FM9, I set it in parallel and put the level about where I wanted, and then started trying effects types and 3 out of 5 were exciting right out of the gate. Select the type, adjust the decay and level, and go.

D

It's just individual taste. I not only think the Helix Dynamic verbs rate, but the Fender Tonemaster Pro's Imperium Convolution Reverb is right up there too.

Don't even know the vowel thing is of what you speak, but for the breathy cloud reverb sound.....I can get it on all of the units I mentioned. Fractal has way more types to choose from and way more exposed parameters. That's all super fun to play with, for sure.

There are also many fun combinations I get with Helix and delays and reverbs on parallel paths.

 

[mikah912]

Who said anything about the eq or volume changing?

For me the primary use is dsp heavy stuff that doesn’t fit in my main patch. There’s this amazing ambient delay in plex delay, can’t remember the name of it, but it’s the most absurd dsp hog imaginable and nothing else sounds like it. It would never fit in my main patch. But if I want to go to it in a live set I can just clone my main patch, kill all the stuff I wouldn’t need for that delay tone and have that plex delay block. No gaps in switching, super easy to program in for no tap dancing, etc.

With Helix I was always compromised on what would fit into the preset, could never fit everything I wanted. I was always out of footswitches or dsp.

On FM9 I rarely am short footswitches, dsp is the limiter. But with the preset switching being so fast that’s no big deal.

D

Huh, never came across a DSP hog block in my whole time using FM9.

Helix also incorporates almost everything I want to do live. Simpler is always better on stage for me.

 

[Stone]

I'm sure the stadium will be a success, but for me I now know my FM pretty good, it does everything i need, so its not going anywhere
As for next Gen platform id have to see if its worth it, i dont need a touch screen or anything of the sort, it would have to be a wait and see what it offers for me to consider.

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

One thing that has made me avoid Line 6 is the reliance on legacy amps and effects. My understanding is that all that stuff basically sounds the same as it did 10 years ago.
When Cliff updates things it tends share those improvements across all amps/drives/effects.

 

[mikah912]

One thing that has made me avoid Line 6 is the reliance on legacy amps and effects. My understanding is that all that stuff basically sounds the same as it did 10 years ago.
When Cliff updates things it tends share those improvements across all amps/drives/effects.

DI has said more than once that they've made engine improvements that affects even the oldest amps, and he's not just talking about the oversampling.

Cliff offers legacy models as well like all of the FAS originals, Das Metall, etc. If there's been an improvement across the last 8 years of, say, the FAS Modern amp model, I'd love to know exactly what it was. Let's not act like the Axe-FX III launched with a ton of content that was nigh indistinguishable from the II

For me, I welcome enginewide improvements for accuracy and whatnot, but I can't qualify a lot of this. When Cliff drops an update that has notes like "Improved triode modeling algorithms", what am I supposed to do with that? What's my reference for how they improved over the prior firmware?

 

[banned]

My understanding is that all that stuff basically sounds the same as it did 10 years ago.

Your understanding needs adjusting.

 

[banned]

I don’t think I’ve ever used a factory preset, and I haven’t bought anything from someone else to use. So I can’t really relate. I’ve always just made my own sounds. Occasionally I’ve lifted an idea from someone else’s patch, but that’s pretty rare and I haven’t ever grabbed something that I couldn’t shift where I wanted it to go.

If you’re grabbing something uber complex like some of the really esoteric sound design stuff that’s using tons of blocks to make one weird sound, I could see that being an issue. That’s gonna happen with any device though. I’ve always thought those sounds were interesting but they aren’t something I ever need.

To clarify on the reverb sounds, it’s not that I can’t pull them out of helix - it’s that the unit simply isn’t capable of the sounds I’m looking for. I can get a semi approximation that would get through a gig, but some of the reverb sounds I really like just cannot be created by the helix models. It’s not a user thing, I can pull those sounds out of a mercury 7, a Ventris (with some deep editing), or the FM9 - all without much work at all. The helix algorithms just have some fundamental design choices that stop them from being capable of what I want. It isn’t for a lack of trying or capability on my part.

The amps, I think Helix is great especially the best of the newer models. Would have zero issues using them for everything I do.

D

I agree with you. I'm definitely hearing better reverb on Fractal - especially on the more expansive reverbs - they're smoother and more detailed

 

[DrewJD82]

For me, I welcome enginewide improvements for accuracy and whatnot, but I can't qualify a lot of this. When Cliff drops an update that has notes like "Improved triode modeling algorithms", what am I supposed to do with that? What's my reference for how they improved over the prior firmware?

You’d have to be familiar with the amp models pre-update to really get an idea for what changed and even then, depending on how the amps are dialed in some things may not be noticeable at all. I’d imagine for the “turn the Drive on 10 then boost it” crowd, they’re not going to be hearing nearly as much of a difference as one would with lower drive settings and with some of the power section updates, unless you’re really utilizing power amp distortion it’s not going to be quite as evident.

 

[mikah912]

I agree with you. I'm definitely hearing better reverb on Fractal - especially on the more expansive reverbs - they're smoother and more detailed

I tend to use a good amount of high-cut or damping for Helix reverbs because I like smoother reverbs too, but there's a definite range sweet spot where it will only sound smeared and dull if you go beyond it.

Fractal's reverbs feel like they have some level of shelving applied to them by default that keeps away anything metallic or spikey regardless of how you dial them in. Which.....is not a bad thing! And the sheer wealth of algorithm choices is great.

 

[mikah912]

You’d have to be familiar with the amp models pre-update to really get an idea for what changed and even then, depending on how the amps are dialed in some things may not be noticeable at all. I’d imagine for the “turn the Drive on 10 then boost it” crowd, they’re not going to be hearing nearly as much of a difference as one would with lower drive settings and with some of the power section updates, unless you’re really utilizing power amp distortion it’s not going to be quite as evident.

Funny enough, the only "Drive on 10" crowd I know of are classic-leaning rockers cranking SLPs/JMPs and the like. Modern high-gain amps really benefit from lower-to-mid gain settings because the clarity is needed for lower tunings and quickly tremolo/alternate-picked passages.

 

[GTR37]

Funny enough, the only "Drive on 10" crowd I know of are classic-leaning rockers cranking SLPs/JMPs and the like. Modern high-gain amps really benefit from lower-to-mid gain settings because the clarity is needed for lower tunings and quickly tremolo/alternate-picked passages.

100% this I was recording w my band this weekend Rythm
Guitars and it was JVM orange OD1 gain under 4 boost on in amp block
It honestly sounds better IMO especially if you want to start layering stuff
I also don’t use much fx
I find the reverbs and delays in the Fractal very strong so my mix is generally under 10% unless I want a big ethereal sound

 

[dk_ace]

I tend to use a good amount of high-cut or damping for Helix reverbs because I like smoother reverbs too, but there's a definite range sweet spot where it will only sound smeared and dull if you go beyond it.

Fractal's reverbs feel like they have some level of shelving applied to them by default that keeps away anything metallic or spikey regardless of how you dial them in. Which.....is not a bad thing! And the sheer wealth of algorithm choices is great.

If you do a lot of high cut, that’s probably why you feel like the helix reverbs are okay. Their problems for me are all in the high end.

I don’t like dark ambient reverbs though generally. If I’m using a reverb as a big effect, I want the audience to hear it - which means highs and mids are prominent. That’s where the metallic garbage comes in on the helix reverbs that makes them sound pretty gross to me.

Fractal reverbs have various amounts of high cut on the default settings, but I generally raise the high cut to make them fairly bright when that’s what I’m going for and they sound gorgeous and don’t have that harsh metallic crap in them. Same for Ventris and M7.

D

 

[- ★ - BROCKSTAR - ★ -]

When Cliff drops an update that has notes like "Improved triode modeling algorithms", what am I supposed to do with that?

Play guitar?

 

[dk_ace]

Play guitar?

Yeah I don’t even try to listen for stuff like that. If I notice an improvement, great. If I don’t, no sweat. I was happy before, I’ll still be happy if I don’t notice the difference.

I also trust that while I might not here or feel one of the small improvements, if I was to compare a big fw jump where he’s made a cumulative 10-15 of those little improvements I probably could tell a difference then.

The main thing is my happiness as a player though, if I’m happy with it that is all that matters to me.

D

 

[mikah912]

If you do a lot of high cut, that’s probably why you feel like the helix reverbs are okay. Their problems for me are all in the high end.

I don’t like dark ambient reverbs though generally. If I’m using a reverb as a big effect, I want the audience to hear it - which means highs and mids are prominent. That’s where the metallic garbage comes in on the helix reverbs that makes them sound pretty gross to me.

Fractal reverbs have various amounts of high cut on the default settings, but I generally raise the high cut to make them fairly bright when that’s what I’m going for and they sound gorgeous and don’t have that harsh metallic crap in them. Same for Ventris and M7.

D

Just my opinion, but you can absolutely hear highs, mids and details in big Helix reverbs without metallic pings and spikes. Dynamic Plate and Hall rule for this, especially when you add delays on parallel paths. I'll say Glitz and Ganymede also work for me. I think Cordy has made several videos proving such, but there's no point in trying to convince someone that their ears are wrong.

This is a Fractal thread, though, and there's no denying the quality and variety of their reverb offerings. Best in class without a doubt. Loved them on my FM9.

It's just that I was good moving exclusively to a platform that had 80 percent of the reverb capabilities, but 500 percent of the usability and also looks exponentially more fun to use. I reserve the right to revisit that choice later.

 

[dk_ace]

Just my opinion, but you can absolutely hear highs, mids and details in big Helix reverbs without metallic pings and spikes. Dynamic Plate and Hall rule for this, especially when you add delays on parallel paths. I'll say Glitz and Ganymede also work for me. I think Cordy has made several videos proving such, but there's no point in trying to convince someone that their ears are wrong.

This is a Fractal thread, though, and there's no denying the quality and variety of their reverb offerings. Best in class without a doubt. Loved them on my FM9.

It's just that I was good moving exclusively to a platform that had 80 percent of the reverb capabilities, but 500 percent of the usability and also looks exponentially more fun to use. I reserve the right to revisit that choice later.

Dynamic hall is a tremendously metallic sounding ambient reverb. It’s impossible to dial out that characteristic of it. If you can’t hear that, I don’t know what to tell you .

D

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

DI has said more than once that they've made engine improvements that affects even the oldest amps, and he's not just talking about the oversampling.

Cliff offers legacy models as well like all of the FAS originals, Das Metall, etc. If there's been an improvement across the last 8 years of, say, the FAS Modern amp model, I'd love to know exactly what it was. Let's not act like the Axe-FX III launched with a ton of content that was nigh indistinguishable from the II

For me, I welcome enginewide improvements for accuracy and whatnot, but I can't qualify a lot of this. When Cliff drops an update that has notes like "Improved triode modeling algorithms", what am I supposed to do with that? What's my reference for how they improved over the prior firmware?

I'm not pretending.
When Cliff updates the modeling engine it effects all amps. When he improved the triode modeling it effects all amps. And he's made these types of updates many times yearly for almost 2 decades.

 

[mikah912]

I'm not pretending.
When Cliff updates the modeling engine it effects all amps. When he improved the triode modeling it effects all amps. And he's made these types of updates many times yearly for almost 2 decades.

I accept that he's telling the truth and making incremental improvements consistently while also knowing they haven't affected my playing or existing patches at all over almost two years. Sounded and felt great before. Same for after.

Feel the same way about Line 6's consistent behind the scenes improvements. The fact that they don't break it down with that level of granularity means nothing to me because I can't pinpoint significant changes in Fractal firmwares when they do break it down that way.

I bought an FM3 and an FM9 before I ever had the chance to try out either in person. I plan to do the same with Stadium XL. I take both companies at their word based on their past reputations and reliability.