Fractal Talk

[DrewJD82]

That sounds fantastic! If I didn’t know any better, I would’ve thought that was Steve. Do you still have the preset you used on this or have you updated it since all of the updates?

I still have it, I recall tweaking it once after an update. I made it the day we got his GoT, I’m not sure when I would have updated it but the OG version is right here- https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/gift-of-tone-16-steve-vai.189957/post-2356892

I’ll update it tomorrow night when I’m in my studio for the newest FW, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if the OG preset sounds fine as it is, I dialed it in like I would have the real amp and I’m assuming I picked a Greenback cab as thats what my Legacy 4x12 had. I wouldn’t expect the updates have drifted away from it!

Edit-
Aw shit, I didn’t even see those other comments until after I wrote that post above, thanks guys. Those comments just made my whole week. Vai sits next to Gilmour for me on the fanaticism/impact scale.

 

[AlbertA]

Hahaha a couple years ago over on Jemsite someone asked if the AxeFX does the Legacy well and as usual, someone had to chime in and talk about esoteric bullshit about tubes and how it can’t. I figured by posting this it would put any speculation to bed-


But no, esoteric tube guy, after claiming how modeling can’t pick up on intricacies of tone and homogenization and blah blah blah, says that it only sounds like a Legacy in that clip because of my fingers. While I’m always on the “tone is in the fingers” side, I draw the line at fingers being able to recreate specific amps, never mind the whole fact that if a modeler is that efficient it can detect differences in my fingers to change a tone, there can’t be a whole lot of homogenization going on!

Yep nailed Vai.

Which guitar did you use?

 

[norminal]

Yep nailed Vai.

Which guitar did you use?

It’s gotta be the Jem.

 

[DrewJD82]

Yep nailed Vai.

Which guitar did you use?

Those Evolutions definitely play a role in that tone! That amp can get muddy if there’s not enough mids/too much bottom end in a pickup.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Another little dive into "how to make my AxeFX sound like my amps". C.C @eloygperez because he's been on my case for ages to check this.

I just dialled the tone in the room with the real amp through a cab, and tapped a DI signal from the amp. Same IR on both.

These settings:

Eyeballing settings sounds a good bit darker than the real amp, but cranking the treble right up and adjusting the rest for tolerances helps a lot.

The real amp still has a bit more around 2k, which could be tone stack related, or a bright cap tolerance, or SIC or something. Very impressive though. The sub lows on the real amp go a bit deeper too, which Im certain is SIC related. You have to be very careful on the AxeFX model as choosing some SIC's will cause the amp to hum/oscillate, and sometimes crash. Could just be luck/randomness, but so far I've found several amps need the treble set much higher on the AxeFX (or other tweaks to make it brighter) to match the real amps. No idea if this is just down to tapers and tolerances (perhaps a large % of real world pots are skewed in their taper in a similar way?). It definitely reminds me not to be afraid of going quite a bit higher than I might normally do with the amp models.

Anyway, here's clips

UBER:

https://samply.app/p/wPXZWuRT2Pz6YG7icgrT

AxeFX EuroUber:

https://samply.app/p/k5NbikGB2guVWUm9j7gv

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Same sort of thing with 5150.

Real Amp (with the correct settings):

Tone:
https://samply.app/p/tugufepQ2ZwubLZmLACA

AxeFX (I think all I tweaked was SIC, zeroing out cabinet non linearity settings and lowered the bias because 5150's belong FROZEN):

Tone:

https://samply.app/p/Fk4me1VxKHwTNe2GVcUp

 

[MirrorProfiles]

RECTO (Mids are too high for my taste, but whatever), done this one before and its fantastic:

Tone:
https://samply.app/p/IPyjf0tdmxt5cJDzUsYk

Tone: https://samply.app/p/DGYqK1Vmjg2Ld6al56A1

 

[saarangnarayan]

RECTO (Mids are too high for my taste, but whatever), done this one before and its fantastic:
View attachment 45629
Tone:
https://samply.app/p/IPyjf0tdmxt5cJDzUsYk


View attachment 45631


Tone: https://samply.app/p/DGYqK1Vmjg2Ld6al56A1

Recto sounds pretty spot on. Only a slight difference in the low end where the Axe seems to have a tad more lows than the amp. No complaints here.

Same sort of thing with 5150.

Real Amp (with the correct settings):

View attachment 45625

Tone:
https://samply.app/p/tugufepQ2ZwubLZmLACA

AxeFX (I think all I tweaked was SIC, zeroing out cabinet non linearity settings and lowered the bias because 5150's belong FROZEN):

View attachment 45626
Tone:

https://samply.app/p/Fk4me1VxKHwTNe2GVcUp

Again, really close, but there’s something missing in the low end on the Axe that changed in one of the recent FWs where the 5150 was remastered. Real amp sounds better here IMO.

Another little dive into "how to make my AxeFX sound like my amps". C.C @eloygperez because he's been on my case for ages to check this.

I just dialled the tone in the room with the real amp through a cab, and tapped a DI signal from the amp. Same IR on both.

These settings:

View attachment 45624

Eyeballing settings sounds a good bit darker than the real amp, but cranking the treble right up and adjusting the rest for tolerances helps a lot.
View attachment 45623

The real amp still has a bit more around 2k, which could be tone stack related, or a bright cap tolerance, or SIC or something. Very impressive though. The sub lows on the real amp go a bit deeper too, which Im certain is SIC related. You have to be very careful on the AxeFX model as choosing some SIC's will cause the amp to hum/oscillate, and sometimes crash. Could just be luck/randomness, but so far I've found several amps need the treble set much higher on the AxeFX (or other tweaks to make it brighter) to match the real amps. No idea if this is just down to tapers and tolerances (perhaps a large % of real world pots are skewed in their taper in a similar way?). It definitely reminds me not to be afraid of going quite a bit higher than I might normally do with the amp models.

Anyway, here's clips

UBER:

https://samply.app/p/wPXZWuRT2Pz6YG7icgrT

AxeFX EuroUber:

https://samply.app/p/k5NbikGB2guVWUm9j7gv

This sounded the most different to me. Almost like two different amps, or different circuits of the same amp design or something. Axe lacks the definition that the real amp seems to have, but I’ve never gotten along with the Uber model anyway so what do I know!

 

[eloygperez]

Thank you for those clips @MirrorProfiles! Overall, my opinion is quite similar to @saarangnarayan.

The real Uberschall sounds more scooped, it has more attack/bite and definition. The Axe sounds muffled in comparison, bass is really different. Since I sold my Rev Blue a few years ago, I still definitely don’t like the Euro Uber model.

About the 5150... I already mentioned it on the Fractal forum (although it didn’t get much attention...) that something didn’t sound right after the “remastering.” It’s quite obvious again when listening to your clips, and it matches my experience when I compared it to my Block Letter. You just have to listen to those first palm mutes… the lowend... It definitely sounded closer to my Block Letter before the remastering.

 

[2112]

Another little dive into "how to make my AxeFX sound like my amps". C.C @eloygperez because he's been on my case for ages to check this.

I just dialled the tone in the room with the real amp through a cab, and tapped a DI signal from the amp. Same IR on both.

These settings:

View attachment 45624

Eyeballing settings sounds a good bit darker than the real amp, but cranking the treble right up and adjusting the rest for tolerances helps a lot.
View attachment 45623

The real amp still has a bit more around 2k, which could be tone stack related, or a bright cap tolerance, or SIC or something. Very impressive though. The sub lows on the real amp go a bit deeper too, which Im certain is SIC related. You have to be very careful on the AxeFX model as choosing some SIC's will cause the amp to hum/oscillate, and sometimes crash. Could just be luck/randomness, but so far I've found several amps need the treble set much higher on the AxeFX (or other tweaks to make it brighter) to match the real amps. No idea if this is just down to tapers and tolerances (perhaps a large % of real world pots are skewed in their taper in a similar way?). It definitely reminds me not to be afraid of going quite a bit higher than I might normally do with the amp models.

Anyway, here's clips

UBER:

https://samply.app/p/wPXZWuRT2Pz6YG7icgrT

AxeFX EuroUber:

https://samply.app/p/k5NbikGB2guVWUm9j7gv

Both clips sound pretty great. Nice reminder to revisit the Uber, we used that model tracking a single not long ago and it turned out great.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Both clips sound pretty great. Nice reminder to revisit the Uber, we used that model tracking a single not long ago and it turned out great.

Defo worth trying the real thing if you can, I don’t say it lightly that I’d put it on par with a Recto and 5150. It has a huge low end punch, but feels like a 5150 gain wise. The Fractal model is awesome but as ever, some experience with the real thing really informs what to expect and how to get the most out of the Fractal version IMO

 

[James Freeman]

My JCM800 2203 is getting some love today.
I've noticed that my amp is much brighter with Presence cranked to 10 than the model.
@FractalAudio can you please check your real amp with Presence cranked to 10 and Master at 1 against the current 2203 model?

Both boosted with my modified real SD-1.

My JCM800 (Suhr RL):


Fractal (same settings):


EDIT:
I should add that most of the Presence range in the real amp is between 8.5 and 10, that's the result of the typical 4.7k + 25k Lin pot configuration.

EDIT2, Bias:
447v Plate voltage

56mA per side (28mA per tube).

447*0.056/2/25 = 50% plate dissipation.
It's on the safe side but not what I would call 'cold' nor will it have any affect on tone from say 60% dissipation.

Just in case, the amp is stock but I elevated the heaters to 75vDC for preamp tube longevity.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

My JCM800 2203 is getting some love today.
I've noticed that my amp is much brighter with Presence cranked to 10 than the model.
@FractalAudio can you please check your real amp with Presence cranked to 10 and Master at 1 against the current 2203 model?

View attachment 45748

View attachment 45749

Both boosted with my modified real SD-1.

My JCM800 (Suhr RL):


Fractal (same settings):


EDIT:
I should add that most of the Presence range in the real amp is between 8.5 and 10, that's the result of the typical 4.7k + 25k Lin pot configuration.

EDIT2, Bias:
447v Plate voltage
View attachment 45752

56mA per side (28mA per tube).
View attachment 45753



447*0.056/2/25 = 50% plate dissipation.
It's on the safe side but not what I would call 'cold' nor will it have any affect on tone from say 60% dissipation.

Just in case, the amp is stock but I elevated the heaters to 75vDC for preamp tube longevity.

Interestingly, my (serviced by Dave Wittering at Marshall) 2203 is almost the opposite to yours vs the Fractal 2203. My amp has way more low end, and is less bright at comparable settings (I'm guessing this is pot tolerances/age related components on the tonestack). Once the tone stack is accounted for, the presence seems quite close

Both boosted by a Boss SD-1 ()

 

[FractalAudio]

My JCM800 2203 is getting some love today.
I've noticed that my amp is much brighter with Presence cranked to 10 than the model.
@FractalAudio can you please check your real amp with Presence cranked to 10 and Master at 1 against the current 2203 model?

View attachment 45748

View attachment 45749

Both boosted with my modified real SD-1.

My JCM800 (Suhr RL):


Fractal (same settings):


EDIT:
I should add that most of the Presence range in the real amp is between 8.5 and 10, that's the result of the typical 4.7k + 25k Lin pot configuration.

EDIT2, Bias:
447v Plate voltage
View attachment 45752

56mA per side (28mA per tube).
View attachment 45753



447*0.056/2/25 = 50% plate dissipation.
It's on the safe side but not what I would call 'cold' nor will it have any affect on tone from say 60% dissipation.

Just in case, the amp is stock but I elevated the heaters to 75vDC for preamp tube longevity.

That's very cold and will make the amp sound brighter.

 

[FractalAudio]

Interestingly, my (serviced by Dave Wittering at Marshall) 2203 is almost the opposite to yours vs the Fractal 2203. My amp has way more low end, and is less bright at comparable settings (I'm guessing this is pot tolerances/age related components on the tonestack). Once the tone stack is accounted for, the presence seems quite close

View attachment 45758




View attachment 45759


Both boosted by a Boss SD-1 ()

View attachment 45760

These old Marshalls are all over the map. We match our models to our reference amps. It's all we can do. Inevitably someone complains that the model doesn't sound like their amp. It's a no-win for us.

 

[James Freeman]

I compared my 6505 to the 5150 model with Presence at 10 and Master at 1, they sound identical, so it's not my setup or how I record the amps.

That's very cold and will make the amp sound brighter.

50% is not considered very cold and sounds almost identical to 70% plate dissipation, at least at low Master volume levels.
Very cold is sub 20% dissipation, 480vDC with 10mA, like the 5150.

Next step is to compare preamps only using the fx loop send form the JCM800, it measures flat and doesn't clip until Master is at around 7.

 

[laxu]

These old Marshalls are all over the map. We match our models to our reference amps. It's all we can do. Inevitably someone complains that the model doesn't sound like their amp. It's a no-win for us.

Do you check if your reference amp's circuit is roughly equivalent to a typical example (e.g what the schematic says it should be)?

For example we had the Line6 Helix situation where their JCM800 model didn't have a bright cap. Technically accurate to the reference model, but the reference model did not match a typical example of the amp.

 

[Orvillain]

Interestingly, my (serviced by Dave Wittering at Marshall) 2203 is almost the opposite to yours vs the Fractal 2203. My amp has way more low end, and is less bright at comparable settings (I'm guessing this is pot tolerances/age related components on the tonestack). Once the tone stack is accounted for, the presence seems quite close

View attachment 45758




View attachment 45759


Both boosted by a Boss SD-1 ()

View attachment 45760

Both sound great!

 

[Orvillain]

My JCM800 2203 is getting some love today.
I've noticed that my amp is much brighter with Presence cranked to 10 than the model.
@FractalAudio can you please check your real amp with Presence cranked to 10 and Master at 1 against the current 2203 model?

View attachment 45748

View attachment 45749

Both boosted with my modified real SD-1.

My JCM800 (Suhr RL):


Fractal (same settings):


EDIT:
I should add that most of the Presence range in the real amp is between 8.5 and 10, that's the result of the typical 4.7k + 25k Lin pot configuration.

EDIT2, Bias:
447v Plate voltage
View attachment 45752

56mA per side (28mA per tube).
View attachment 45753



447*0.056/2/25 = 50% plate dissipation.
It's on the safe side but not what I would call 'cold' nor will it have any affect on tone from say 60% dissipation.

Just in case, the amp is stock but I elevated the heaters to 75vDC for preamp tube longevity.

Whereas, IMHO, neither of these tones are what I'd go for. Too shrill for me. I do like a bit of that brightness, but this is kinda painful to listen to. Sorry!

 

[FractalAudio]

Do you check if your reference amp's circuit is roughly equivalent to a typical example (e.g what the schematic says it should be)?

Of course.