Fractal ICONS Plugin

[Mongillo19]

There may or may not be a price/volume point that will make it profitable for Fractal, but pretending you know where that price point is better than Cliff and company is rather foolish. You don't know anywhere near enough to make that judgement.

No, but I can make a judgement by not buying and there is never a world where I am choosing 2 fractal packs over a AM4 (for my case and honestly probably many others).

To entertain the idea of a professional in the studio, are you going to tell me the whole suite for $3000 vs say Helix Native for $400 makes sense? Assuming one is working with plugins to the scale where hardware doesn't make sense. I can hear it now "GO BUY HELIX NATIVE THEN'.

We have a direct competitor that has a 1:1 plugin suite to their hardware for a fraction of the cost. Why would we not hold FAS to a similar standard. I could see the argument if it was close in price but we are talking a MASSIVE price hike.

I will also argue you shouldn't just assume companies are solely thinking of their customers when setting price points and it would be foolish to assume FAS is looking out for us. They need to make a profit at the end of the day.

 

[yek]

Buying everything from ICONS for $3000 when I can get it for $700 in the AM4? Dream on.

And you make it seem like Helix Native isn't plentiful and it can be had for $50/$100 at times. Not saying ICONS should be $50/$100 but the pricing is absurd. I really don't know how some of you are justifying it.

You really need to be interested in only a select few amps in the fractal universe to make it make sense.

FWIW, not trying to justify the price of ICONS. I just think that the entire suite is worth more than 399. And yes, Helix Native is a steal.

 

[Chocol8]

No, but I can make a judgement by not buying and there is never a world where I am choosing 2 fractal packs over a AM4 (for my case and honestly probably many others).

Maybe you aren't the customer they need or want to go after to make the effort worthwhile.

To entertain the idea of a professional in the studio, are you going to tell me the whole suite for $3000 vs say Helix Native for $400 makes sense? Assuming one is working with plugins to the scale where hardware doesn't make sense. I can hear it now "GO BUY HELIX NATIVE THEN'.

The current Helix Native is not really a true substitute for the entire Fractal collection. A lot of people have paid way more to get an AxeIII vs a Stomp and there will be people who will happily pay more for a full Icons suite over or more likely alongside Native. Also, hints from DI on Stadium Native not being a priority or maybe even not on the radar may suggest Helix Native was not a big money maker for them and maybe not worth it as a loss leader at the historical price points.

We have a direct competitor that has a 1:1 plugin suite to their hardware for a fraction of the cost. Why would we not hold FAS to a similar standard. I could see the argument if it was close in price but we are talking a MASSIVE price hike.

If it's not profitable to FAS they won't do it. There is no holding them to anything because they don't owe us anything we haven't paid for already. Again, was Native profitable or at all worthwhile to Line6? Their reluctance to do another version suggests no, so "holding" them and FAS to a lower price point might translate into them not bothering.

I will also argue you shouldn't just assume companies are solely thinking of their customers when setting price points and it would be foolish to assume FAS is looking out for us. They need to make a profit at the end of the day.

Exactly, and that may mean charging a lot more than $700. I have no clue what the magic number is.

 

[Mongillo19]

FWIW, not trying to justify the price of ICONS. I just think that the entire suite is worth more than 399. And yes, Helix Native is a steal.

I agree. Honestly, not counting the AM4, I think $1000 would be my limit as to what it should cost.

Obvious disclaimer that I have no idea at what point fractal makes a profit. But if they can make one at a $700 that includes hardware, I think they can make a profit at a $700-$1000 plugin.

I don't think many of us

1) expected a FAS plug
2) if we did it was going to be in this format

 

[Chocol8]

But if they can make one at a $700 that includes hardware, I think they can make a profit at a $700-$1000 plugin.

This would be a reasonable assumption except porting the software from Axe and FM products to the AM4 might have been many times easier than porting it to a PC environment. The AM4 might also sell in higher volume than Icons. I don't know the answer to either, but I do know from other companies I work with, costs can be VERY different than what an outsider would assume.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Honestly; it's amazing any of it exists in plug form given the history of plug-in reluctance. So I feel like it's tip the door open with our toe and slyly keep nudging that full suite into existence

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Pricing is a tough one and there’s no correct answer. The number of people who’s pay over $400 is relatively small IMO, while the number who’d pay <$400 is enormous.

The whole culture towards plugin pricing has shifted a lot - going back 20 years or so, there was a market for very expensive plugins but that’s changed now. I think the Lexicon PCM Bundle was something like $2000 at launch? That’s regularly been on sale for $200-300 for years now. The HW with the same algos (with some bugs for good measure) is still available to buy new for £3500. The users who want the HW still pay for it regardless of the plugin price.

Waves and UA were previously selling plugins and bundles for way more than what they can now.

Fractal (and the market) will find a value that works for them. It’s a competitive market and I cant imagine there are that many users who are prepared to pay top dollar purely to have Fractal. Probably similar to Lexicon, where there are a small number of users who would pay $2000 for the plugins but at $250 there are just orders of magnitude more potential customers out there.

 

[FuzzyAce]

I agree and as I stated, I don't think Fractal should make it $100 (although I absolutely think they should offer a discount for hardware users)

You need to be able to have the full suite for less than $700 imo. Otherwise I don't get the point. Even if I loved plugins and the workflow, I'm not sure how you could justify spending more for less and not even getting hardware with it. It's not like you can't reamp with the AM4, right?

But with Yek saying "AlL tHe FaS StuFF fOr tHe PRiCe Of a StRyMon, YeAh RIgHt BudDY"

Okay, how about a little less than 2 Strymon pedals because that's what you get with the AM4

To be completely honest, if FAS had announced plugins before I got an AM4 it's quite possible I'd passed on the AM4. Just because my workflow and playing time at the moment is more focused on recording. I'd much rather pull up a plugin than have to reamp. @MirrorProfiles stated it all pretty clearly in that regard. I love my AM4 though, and it will be fun to play out with it at some point.

 

[AlbertA]

Pricing is hard - I think they are testing the waters and seeing the feedback.

I wouldn't be surprised at bundled discounts if you already own an ICON plugin/package once new ones come in.

They responded quickly to the demo request.

 

[Melodioso]

Pricing is hard - I think they are testing the waters and seeing the feedback.

I wouldn't be surprised at bundled discounts if you already own an ICON plugin/package once new ones come in.

They responded quickly to the demo request.

Discounts for hardware owners would also be a nice touch—especially since the models are effectively 1:1 with what’s running on-device. That said, if Fractal were going to pursue that approach, it likely would’ve been baked in from launch.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Fractal know very well just how loyal their customers are. I think part of their approach is generally to cater to us die hards, and that loyalty is more than reflected in what we’re willing to pay for and accept in return. Even if Fractal is expensive, I think everyone who buys in is generally happy with what they get in return.

 

[KFF]

I think everyone who buys in is generally happy with what they get in return.

And return, and return, and return...

Have never seen another company develop their platforms so passionately, frequently and continually.

Yet to be seen in plugin-land, but I doubt it will be any different.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Take a Deluxe Reverb. Gain on 10, Treble on 10, Bass at 0. Nasty.

You guys should get your hands on one of the Chris Stapleton Princeton amps -- or equivalent brow face Princeton clone. Played through one for first time last week and it was really great. Different than the Headstrong Brownface Deluxe clone I played. The Princeton was already starting to add significantly noticeably harmonic content/saturation as soon as the volume was nudged up above silent. Kinda softens the blow of the mid-forward nature of the brown face amp keeping it from being pokey, but still held onto SO much detail, especially playing with fingers.

 

[zedhed]

I think it blows goats,

*purchases goat mask*

I went to a local Ghost convention last week.
about 100 people turned up, plumbers, accountants, people from all walks of life, including farmers.

When the question "has anyone heard a ghost" was asked, about 90% of hands went up.

"Anyone seen a ghost" ...60% nodded in the affirmative.

"Anyone touched a ghost"... a drastic reduction to 10%

"Anyone had sex with a ghost"... people sheepishly looking to the one sitting next to them....then

Jimmy the farmer down the back of the hall jumps up waving his arms about in excitement ...yes, I have.

The meeting chair replies...Jimmy, do you really want us all to believe you've had sex with a ghost?

Jimmy replies...pardon?

"Do you really want us all to believe you've had sex with a ghost? "

Jimmy...Oh sorry...

I thought you said Goat.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Fractal know very well just how loyal their customers are. I think part of their approach is generally to cater to us die hards, and that loyalty is more than reflected in what we’re willing to pay for and accept in return. Even if Fractal is expensive, I think everyone who buys in is generally happy with what they get in return.

It's also cool you guys overseas and elsewhere get a much cheaper option to sink your teeth into.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I went to a local Ghost convention last week.
about 100 people turned up, plumbers, accountants, people from all walks of life, including farmers.

When the question "has anyone heard a ghost" was asked, about 90% of hands went up.

"Anyone seen a ghost" ...60% nodded in the affirmative.

"Anyone touched a ghost"... a drastic reduction to 10%

"Anyone had sex with a ghost"... people sheepishly looking to the one sitting next to them....then

Jimmy the farmer down the back of the hall jumps up waving his arms about in excitement ...yes, I have.

The meeting chair replies...Jimmy, do you really want us all to believe you've had sex with a ghost?

Jimmy replies...pardon?

"Do you really want us all to believe you've had sex with a ghost? "

Jimmy...Oh sorry...

I thought you said Goat.

I think I speak for everyone, when I extend a huge welcome!

 

[Elric]

To be fair, pricing for Helix Native is a steal. I got it for $99 for getting a stomp. That's a ridiculous value.

And yet Helix product sales do not seem to have been impacted at all as far as we know. It probably makes it a more attractive ecosystem to a lot of folks. Fractal may have a different strategy and I am glad to see them doing plugs but honestly this has much less appeal and does not seem to offer as much from a consumer perspective… will probably completely pass until there’s some change.

It’s also telling that they are not getting that much forum talk etc.

 

[FuzzyAce]

And yet Helix product sales do not seem to have been impacted at all as far as we know. It probably makes it a more attractive ecosystem to a lot of folks.

It may limit sales from existing customers, maybe they're less likely to buy another hardware unit if plugins are sufficient enough. But new customers can always be gained through plugins alone or vice versa and maybe they want the whole ecosystem as you say.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

And yet Helix product sales do not seem to have been impacted at all as far as we know. It probably makes it a more attractive ecosystem to a lot of folks. Fractal may have a different strategy and I am glad to see them doing plugs but honestly this has much less appeal and does not seem to offer as much from a consumer perspective… will probably completely pass until there’s some change.

It’s also telling that they are not getting that much forum talk etc.

I definitely bought an HX Stomp in order to have a cheaper pathway to Helix Native. Line 6 wins twice there.

It may limit sales from existing customers, maybe they're less likely to buy another hardware unit if plugins are sufficient enough. But new customers can always be gained through plugins alone or vice versa and maybe they want the whole ecosystem as you say.

I think there’s more likely even more customers that wouldn’t have bought any hardware unit that buy the plugin, and overall it’s better for Line 6 to offer them something. I wasn’t really after a hardware unit at all, but it just made too much sense to buy HX Stomp than not, because of the plugin. If there was no plugin, there’s no way I would have bought the Stomp.

The price for HX Native felt pretty spot on compared to all their hardware offerings.

For a single all in one plugin, anything more than £500 for anything is a bit crazy these days. Breaking them into smaller plugins at least gives users the choice to pick and choose the things they care about, and get a more curated/slick experience. That’s kind of where NDSP’s model works - the stuff you care about you just pay on day one, for stuff you don’t care about, you skip right past, and there’s some inbetween where you just wait for the right sale price (or 2nd hand licence) and you do it at a convenient time.

 

[FuzzyAce]

The price for HX Native felt pretty spot on compared to all their hardware offerings.

And not to mention, they did a wonderful job on free updates and model add ons.
But yes, buying a Stomp AND getting Native was a sweet deal for me. What I thought I really wanted (the hardware) actually turned out to be severely less utilized. The plugin changed the way I recorded guitar and my overall workflow improved because of it.