Fender FR-10/FR-12 noise reduction mod

[Lysander]

Anything new you try in the way of monitor speakers - what this is - is going to sound different than whatever you were using previously. That's a fact. It's also a fact that quite a few of the folks I see extolling the virtues of the product have years-long histories of "discovering" new products, raving about their virtues online, then unceremoniously moving on to the next "new" product.

Eh, that's a bit reductive. Yes, it does sound "different", but you get a critical mass of people claiming the sound is better... maybe that's because it just is? I know i pitted the FR-12 against a PC 112, side to side, and i much preferred the former.

These are FRFRs which is not really that flat nor full range, and seems very tailored for guitar tones, so it's no wonder why a lot of people prefer that sound rather over a rebranded PA box.

 

[jay mitchell]

These are FRFRs which is not really that flat nor full range,

IOW, these are not ""FRFR"." Nor are they guitar cabs, since they have tweeters.

and seems very tailored for guitar tones,

That's what a modeler is supposed to do. If you need to use IRs and a "not-really-"FRFR" but not guitar" cab to get a sound you like, maybe you just don't like the sounds you get from your modeler.

 

[Lysander]

IOW, these are not ""FRFR"." Nor are they guitar cabs, since they have tweeters.

That's just not true, sorry. You can absolutely have "FRFR" on a cab with tweeters - in fact, multiple drivers are the only practical way to get a relatively flat response out of a cab. Another key word here here is "full", which will have different meanings depending on the application (PA, HiFi, guitar, bass, keyboards, etc.)

I'm positive that the FR-12 will sound like ass for bass, as the amp has a steep frequency response rolloff at 70hz.

That's what a modeler is supposed to do. If you need to use IRs and a "not-really-"FRFR" but not guitar" cab to get a sound you like, maybe you just don't like the sounds you get from your modeler.

Also not true. I have headphones and small monitors which are way flatter and Hi-Fi full range than this amp - and i'd much rather play modelers through the latter.

 

[jay mitchell]

You can absolutely have "FRFR" on a cab with tweeters

I never said otherwise. You said, "These are FRFRs which is not really that flat nor full range." That's the definition of "not "FRFR"."

- in fact, multiple drivers are the only practical way to get a relatively flat response out of a cab.

Once again, I never said otherwise. FWIW, I'm rumored to have a few insights into loudspeaker design....

Another key word here here is "full", which will have different meanings depending on the application (PA, HiFi, guitar, bass, keyboards, etc.)

Yet another "key word" here is "flat." FYI, "flat" response is not just the response of a speaker at a strategically-chosen test mic position (i.e., "on axis"), it is the response of the speaker at all points within its intended coverage angles.

I have headphones and small monitors which are way flatter and Hi-Fi full range than this amp - and i'd much rather play modelers through the latter.

FYI, "small monitors" may be anything but flat, and headphones are never "flat" without being calibrated to a specific listener. In any case, if you really do need a glorified guitar cab with "tone-shaping" controls to get your modeler to sound "right," then your modeler just isn't doing its job. Whether that is a limitation imposed by the modeler or the user is another question.

 

[fretworn]

Not flat …

Fender FR-12 preamp mod : The Hissterectomy

We should rename this thread to Hissterectomy.

forum.fractalaudio.com

 

[laxu]

What's surprising to me is the apparently widespread interest in this kind of product. Even with its "design flaw" (noisy EQ section) fixed, there's no way it can be well-behaved. It shares its format with the Line 6 Powercab, Atomic FR, and any number of other untreated-guitar-cab-with-added tweeter products. I realize that this is not widely understood, but it is a fact that this format causes acoustic misbehaviors that cannot be fixed. It is also a fact that a 1x10 or 1x12 guitar cab with a directivity modifier installed would handily outperform any cab with this format. Are this cab's attributes - it says "Fender" (not made by them BTW), is Tolexed and has Fender kickstands - really a priority over all else?

It's no secret that how a thing looks plays a big part in the perception people have for it. I still sometimes can't get around the fact that the somewhat ugly, large pedal sized BluGuitar Amp 1 hybrid sounds so good to me. It would probably be more popular if it looked like a regular amp head.

I also really liked the Atomic FR 1x12 I had back in the day. I used it a lot with the Axe-Fx 2 and always had good results. Whether it was flat or not, it worked. I'm sure looking like a guitar cab helped even though I never thought about that.

The Fender FR-12 sits at a good price point for this sort of device, and above all it's easily available.

 

[Stratzrus]

Are this cab's attributes - it says "Fender" (not made by them BTW), is Tolexed and has Fender kickstands - really a priority over all else?

I'll readily admit the form factor, the name Fender, the tilt legs, its weight and cost had a lot to do with me wanting to try one out. I haven't used mine yet so I can comment on how well it functions.

I've posted many times that I love my CLRs. I'm interested in seeing how the Fender compares. I'm not one of the "Flippers". I seldom sell gear and if I find something I like I play it for years. I've had the CLRs since they came out and they are still my favorite.

The FR-12 has the potential to be a good grab and go option for using with my FM9. I bought one to see if that's true. I got it from a big box internet vendor so if it doesn't work for me I can send it back. At the price, a major factor, I thought it was worth checking out.

Once again Jay, I don't disagree with anything you said. It's not a "FRFR" monitor despite its name. The design probably has some serious limitations, ones that you would know far better than I. But I've learned long ago that a piece of gear doesn't have to be the best, just good enough. As it stands, based solely on internet posts, I'd be surprised if it replaces my CLRs in my home studio but may very well see some use playing out where portability is a factor.

I'm 72 with a bad back, knees, and have had three hernia operations from hauling gear, the first from lifting a Super Reverb the wrong way. An amp that weighs less than 28 lbs. is something I need to consider. My original CLRs are 40 lbs. each. If I can be happy using something that's significantly lighter it makes sense for me to check it out.

 

[Piing]

I don't think it's that surprising. Modelers are extremely popular these days, and a "FRFR" solution from a major player in the amp world was bound to generate interest. In my particular case, i found a lot appealing about the FR-12 - available power (hmm...), form factor, weight, tone-shaping controls and, yes, how it looks. So, i took a plunge on launch day.

Coming from a Powercab 112, which is a great "FRFR" on its own right, i think there's a lot to like about the FR-12. It's compact, lightweight, very well built, can get extremely loud, and i found the EQ stack to be super useful to quickly dial tones. But, above all... it sounds really, really good. I can't quantify exactly why, but there's a fullness to it that i haven't experienced on similar products. Running a modeler with a 1x12" cab sim through these amps is extremely convincing.

My guess is that it's mostly related to the fact that the FR-12 is built as a (good) combo cabinet. And i'm 99% certain that Fender spent time tweaking the preamp & EQ sections around the cab+speaker selection; the controls feel and react a lot like a "real" combo amp.

Hiss issues aside, it's hands down the best "FRFR" i've played. I wouldn't have bothered trying to fix it otherwise.

And if Marshall made a "FRFR" with their logo and their classical looks, that would be a killer best-seller.

They better do that, rather than all these stupid headphones and blue-tooth speakers they've made since Jim passed away

 

[jay mitchell]

I've posted many times that I love my CLRs.

Although I appreciate that, I'll point out that I've never used CLRs for gigs or rehearsals myself. I told Tom when he was making some up-front choices that I was not a member of the target market for that product.

I'm 72 with a bad back, knees, and have had three hernia operations from hauling gear, the first from lifting a Super Reverb the wrong way. An amp that weighs less than 28 lbs. is something I need to consider.

I'm right with you wrt age and weight limitations on my gear. I'm going to a big-band rehearsal on Monday. My rig for that will be an Amplifire 3 and a two-way monitor with an 8" woofer that weighs less than 20 pounds. (And an archtop and a music stand.)
Have you checked out a QSC K8.2?

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Although I appreciate that, I'll point out that I've never used CLRs for gigs or rehearsals myself. I told Tom when he was making some up-front choices that I was not a member of the target market for that product.


I'm right with you wrt age and weight limitations on my gear. I'm going to a big-band rehearsal on Monday. My rig for that will be an Amplifire 3 and a two-way monitor with an 8" woofer that weighs less than 20 pounds. (And an arshtop and a music stand.)
Have you checked out a QSC K8.2?

Jay, does your preferred choice for monitor change if you are primarily using a driven / distorted amp sound?
for me that is where the endless search has always begun and usually I find myself giving up on the IR and sending the modeled amp sound to a regular guitar speaker cab. But of course that eliminates all the versatility IR’s provide…greenback for a plexi Jensen for a fender etc.

i figure if you have settled on a two way solution even for the classic rock guitar sounds I might as well try it out too if I haven’t already.

 

[jay mitchell]

Jay, does your preferred choice for monitor change if you are primarily using a driven / distorted amp sound?

Not at all. If the modeler can do its job (mine can), it needs no help from the monitor beyond clean, neutral amplification.

 

[Lysander]

I never said otherwise. You said, "These are FRFRs which is not really that flat nor full range." That's the definition of "not "FRFR"."

Why not? For their intended application, they perfectly are. No one should be expecting reference monitor performance out of a $500 instrument-oriented power amplifier.

Or, in other words, "flat" and "full" are only meaningful in their context of intended use.

Yet another "key word" here is "flat." FYI, "flat" response is not just the response of a speaker at a strategically-chosen test mic position (i.e., "on axis"), it is the response of the speaker at all points within its intended coverage angles. FYI, "small monitors" may be anything but flat, and headphones are never "flat" without being calibrated to a specific listener.

Not that i disagree, but i fail to see what that has to do with anything here?

In any case, if you really do need a glorified guitar cab with "tone-shaping" controls to get your modeler to sound "right," then your modeler just isn't doing its job. Whether that is a limitation imposed by the modeler or the user is another question.

The tone control is not there to make the amp "sound right", but to perform quick adjustments on the fly... like one would do on an actual guitar combo. The amp sounds stellar with EQ at noon and cut at zero.

 

[Lysander]

Not flat …

That's actually pretty flat by instrument "FRFR" standards The low frequency bump is a mixture of the cabinet's own resonance and the EQ section, which is very Vox AC30-ish in the sense that bass gets exaggerated even with that control at neutral. Dialing it down to 3-4ish will flatten out the response up to 300Hz entirely.

The worst offender IMHO is the ~5dB dip at 2.8kHz, which is likely the crossover point for the tweeter - and can't be easily compensated for. From Fractal Forums:

For reference, here's the frequency response of the Yamaha HS8 and QSC K10.2, also courtesy of Fractal Forums:

 

[FuzzyAce]

Stellar username @shit sandwich .

 

[jellodog]

@shit sandwich FWIW, he has never answered my questions either.

 

[Stratzrus]

Although I appreciate that, I'll point out that I've never used CLRs for gigs or rehearsals myself. I told Tom when he was making some up-front choices that I was not a member of the target market for that product.

I'm right with you wrt age and weight limitations on my gear. I'm going to a big-band rehearsal on Monday. My rig for that will be an Amplifire 3 and a two-way monitor with an 8" woofer that weighs less than 20 pounds. (And an archtop and a music stand.)
Have you checked out a QSC K8.2?

I haven't used the CLRs for gigs either but have used them with the Axe FX III quite a bit at rehearsals when my band rehearsed at my home studio. They were wonderful and my bandmates loved them too.

Like you, I'm also using an Atomic product with my monitor. In addition to the FM9 I'll also be using my Ampli-Firebox Mark II when I want to go light. I think it's great for what it is and its portability is a major plus.

 

[Rickboot]

Although I appreciate that, I'll point out that I've never used CLRs for gigs or rehearsals myself. I told Tom when he was making some up-front choices that I was not a member of the target market for that product.


I'm right with you wrt age and weight limitations on my gear. I'm going to a big-band rehearsal on Monday. My rig for that will be an Amplifire 3 and a two-way monitor with an 8" woofer that weighs less than 20 pounds. (And an archtop and a music stand.)
Have you checked out a QSC K8.2?

I love my CLR too. I admit I am also interested in the FR-12 because it supposedly sounds decent and, yes, because it looks like a cab. Although, I’d prefer a Marshall or Mesa. :)

Lighter would be nice, too. I recall you were considering a smaller, lighter alternative to the CLR. I’d love to see and hear that.

 

[Stratzrus]

Have you checked out a QSC K8.2?

I have not but I've heard good things about it.

 

[jay mitchell]

That's actually pretty flat by instrument "FRFR" standards

None of the loudspeaker data presented there is credible. Having the test gear you need to acquire loudspeaker response data is no longer the financial barrier it was as recently as 25 years ago. Having the knowledge required to take valid loudspeaker data is still a significant obstacle, however.

 

[fretworn]

None of the loudspeaker data presented there is credible. Having the test gear you need to acquire loudspeaker response data is no longer the financial barrier it was as recently as 25 years ago. Having the knowledge required to take valid loudspeaker data is still a significant obstacle, however.

How do you assess his test as invalid? Specifically re: knowledge gap? Cite actual evidence please Jay so that we may ascertain for ourselves.

So far, his demonstrable electronics work has proven quite effective, defensible and transparent.

That’s more than I can say for a lot of folks.