F# is not Gb

[metropolis_4]

A friend of mine who is a professional concert violinist once told me this story:

She was in a rehearsal with a professional orchestra and the conductor stopped them, threw down his baton, and yelled “how many times do I have to tell you, Gb is NOT F#!!”

I’ve always thought that was interesting.

So lately I’ve been buying a bunch of violin music to play on mandolin and I came across this in one of the scores:

If it has to be noted that in this case Gb does equal F#, that implies that it might not be obvious to the reader, meaning they might mistakenly think Gb does equal F# right?

I’m not a violinist, I don’t know much about the theory behind this, but I’ve been told there are subtle differences to the way the note is approached and the pitch that sounds. This can also be within the context of the key signature I believe where in one key a certain note may need to sound sharp while in another key the same note may need to sound flat.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Sounds like you're getting into the whole, "equal temperament vs. just intonation" methods of tuning, and by extension, I suppose how that may affect how a player of a continuous-pitch instrument would fret a note, depending on which enharmonic notation was used. Which might be relative to the key it's in.

I was taught they are the same, but if you were playing the E major scale, you wouldn't name any of those notes by using flats. Iow, it's basically just a naming convention that's agreed upon.

But I could see it (Gb vs. F#, etc.) being subtly different within certain musical genres.

 

[TravisG406]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. I played violin in symphonies for years. Must have been trying to make a point about intonation?

 

[DrewJD82]

A friend of mine who is a professional concert violinist once told me this story:

She was in a rehearsal with a professional orchestra and the conductor stopped them, threw down his baton, and yelled “how many times do I have to tell you, Gb is NOT F#!!”

I’ve always thought that was interesting.

So lately I’ve been buying a bunch of violin music to play on mandolin and I came across this in one of the scores:

View attachment 5638



If it has to be noted that in this case Gb does equal F#, that implies that it might not be obvious to the reader, meaning they might mistakenly think Gb does equal F# right?

I’m not a violinist, I don’t know much about the theory behind this, but I’ve been told there are subtle differences to the way the note is approached and the pitch that sounds. This can also be within the context of the key signature I believe where in one key a certain note may need to sound sharp while in another key the same note may need to sound flat.

Whoa, where’d you get the crop circle instructions?!? I’d be careful with that, the government might confiscate it.

 

[GuitarBilly]

On Just intonation instruments their intonation will slightly change in relation to their placement on a chord.

For example, if you are playing a Gb as the 3rd of a Ebmin chord that the ensemble is playing , if you hold the same note while the ensemble switches to Bmin now that same note is a F# and is functioning as a 5th, so you will need to subtly adjust your pitch for it to be perfectly in tune. Guitar is equal temperament so it's not a concern for us.


But also, many conductors are insufferable jerks and love to yell things like that just to act like they can hear things other can't and every member of the ensemble think the person next to them made the mistake.

 

[Fireproof]

I don’t know anything about any other instruments. All I know is I play Gb on the guitar the same way I play an F#. Right?

 

[itchyfingers]

Thank god I don't play violin!

Gb and F# are inharmonics; same note, different names. I kinda do wanna hear a violin player attempt to play them as two separate notes tho.

 

[metropolis_4]

On Just intonation instruments their intonation will slightly change in relation to their placement on a chord.

For example, if you are playing a Gb as the 3rd of a Ebmin chord that the ensemble is playing , if you hold the same note while the ensemble switches to Bmin now that same note is a F# and is functioning as a 5th, so you will need to subtly adjust your pitch for it to be perfectly in tune. Guitar is equal temperament so it's not a concern for us.


But also, many conductors are insufferable jerks and love to yell things like that just to act like they can hear things other can't and every member of the ensemble think the person next to them made the mistake.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that is one of the qualifications required to become a conductor of an orchestra.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Gb is F#. I say that as a guitarist but also trumpet player.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Considering pitch, they're not the same on any "freely" intonating instrument. Try to, say, follow an unaccompanied choire recording of something to modulate more or less a bit with a guitar. It won't sound any great, partially even pretty wrong, simply because choires usually follow just intonation.
An F# as the third of a D major chord will likely be intonated somewhat flat compared to a Gb used as the 5th in a Cb chord.

And considering function, they don't even have anything to do with each other. F# is the major third for a D chord, whereas Gb would be the diminished fourth (or minor 10th or whatever you may find things being called). And regardless whether and how much our ears will try to fool us into thinking they're the same (which, very obviously, results in a perfect illusion on a tempered instrument), once you're dealing with sheet music, you better make use of them as two distinct things because otherwise it'll cause severe reading issues.

 

[signalpath]

An extract from “Performance Practice: A Dictionary-Guide for Musicians”.

Tuning and temperament (13th–20th c.). Differing methods of tuning or temperament have been adopted at various times over the course of Western musical history. The question for a performer is to determine which method is most suitable for a particular musical work or composer. With “tuning,” one aspires to match pitches or intervals with those of nature, in other words, those corresponding with the natural overtones. “Tempering,” on the other hand, has to do with altering certain of these pitches slightly in order to facilitate the changing into different harmonic centers (modulation) during a musical work. Tuning and temperament, therefore, represent two contrary tendencies, the desire for pure intervals opposing the need to compromise these to some extent for the sake of compositional freedom.

The first time I heard the Tallis Scholars who use just temperament I was dumbstruck. The clarity and purity of the sound is astounding.

 

[Sascha Franck]

The first time I heard the Tallis Scholars who use just temperament I was dumbstruck. The clarity and purity of the sound is astounding.

Can't find it online, but during some music history course we were listening to the same choire piece twice. There's been some modulations happening (that and that it's been a slightly modern, even kinda jazzy thing is all what I actually remember). One take was recorded with a guide piano (muted on the recording) whereas the other wasn't. The differences were quite staggering and very clearly in favour of the "free" version - and I'm saying this as someone used to listen to tempered tuning all my life. All of us students agreed on that.
Quite a pity it's not possible to combine free key (and hence modulation) choice and just intonation.

 

[Orvillain]

Absolute fanny batter.

Pitch is just a social construct, maaaaaaaan!

 

[signalpath]

Absolute fanny batter.

Pitch is just a social construct, maaaaaaaan!

You must have been reading Sokal’s “Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity”

 

[DrewJD82]

 

[Bruce]

F# is the enharmonic equivalent of Gb. The pitch is one pitch. It is equal in sound. It is appropriate to use one or the other depending typically on key and spelling interval names. If you were spelling a C# scale, you’d say F# is the 4th degree, not Gb.

 

[signalpath]

F# is the enharmonic equivalent of Gb. The pitch is one pitch. It is equal in sound.

True, if you’re dogmatically tempered.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

F# is the enharmonic equivalent of Gb. The pitch is one pitch. It is equal in sound. It is appropriate to use one or the other depending typically on key and spelling interval names. If you were spelling a C# scale, you’d say F# is the 4th degree, not Gb.

It is in equal temperament. But the difference between a small tritone F# and a large tritone Gb...assuming with middle C as a root of 256 Hz area 355.5 and 369.5 Hz or 66 cent.
That's literally 2/3 of a fret between them.

So just being conditioned by 2nf fret Rick riffs does not mean that mist wouldn't wiggle it in tune.

And our fretted F#/Gb is literally in the middle between those two pitches.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

And it doesn’t get better with the other en harmonic pitches on guitars…Db is slightly sharp of our C#/Db by 20 cent and Db is 40 cent flat

 

[murphy brown]

A friend of mine who is a professional concert violinist once told me this story:

She was in a rehearsal with a professional orchestra and the conductor stopped them, threw down his baton, and yelled “how many times do I have to tell you, Gb is NOT F#!!”

I’ve always thought that was interesting.

So lately I’ve been buying a bunch of violin music to play on mandolin and I came across this in one of the scores:

View attachment 5638



If it has to be noted that in this case Gb does equal F#, that implies that it might not be obvious to the reader, meaning they might mistakenly think Gb does equal F# right?

I’m not a violinist, I don’t know much about the theory behind this, but I’ve been told there are subtle differences to the way the note is approached and the pitch that sounds. This can also be within the context of the key signature I believe where in one key a certain note may need to sound sharp while in another key the same note may need to sound flat.

the difference maybe subtle but for someone who is trained and knows what too look for, he can maybe tell which is which.