E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[paisleywookiee]

Acoustic drums soind great in tiny venues I hear it happen several times a month

No. No you don’t.

 

[Orvillain]

 

[OneEng]

This is the stuff I've been waiting for as it goes a long way in telling you the experience level of a drummer. I have not seen a pillow inside a kick drum since 1998 when I was in high school and it was another high schooler's beginner kit.

Isn't it past your bed time little boy? By 1998, I had spent 6 years in the Navy, Spent 6 years in College, and had several years of post college gigging under my belt ...... and had long since abandoned the pillow. Your statement shows your relative lack of experience. FYI, I haven't seen a pillow inside a kick since before 1998.

@OneEng; You seem to worry mostly about how a so called "FOH engineer" can make a shitty cover band consisting of mediocre musicians (including said "FOH engineer") playing mediocre versions of too often played cover songs can get away with the least effort sounding at least half decent on a ferry with too much liquor being served. In such a setting, I agree using today's e-drums instead of acoustic drums and your other takes perhaps could make some sense.

But when you want to experience real musicians playing live interacting with each other and with the audience, other factors than convenience for the "FOH engineer" come into play.

Fair enough. This is a similar argument to people not wanting to wear IEM's as well.

Lets abandon the "smaller venue gig" for just a minute. At the very top of the food chain, the majority of top touring bands are using triggers and either mixing the natural sound of the drums with the triggered sounds ..... or completely replacing the sound with the triggered sound. This is ironically (for this group) much more prevalent in metal bands (that impact I was talking about earlier). Of course jazz and blues are different.

Point is, why would top bands do this if samples were crap live?

Still, I can't disagree that for some groups, especially for those not using IEM's, the lack of energy on the stage could easily effect the way they play.

Which is why all bands should use IEM .

Okay. Maybe there's something to work with here. Let's say I don't even disagree. What I have been trying to say is, even if it is true, it is at the expense of severely affecting the musicianship and realism and authenticity of the band - which is very important in music.

Someone else mentioned cymbal swells before I think. But cymbal swells on an e-kit do not work very well. It is always a compromise and you really have to change your technique to stand even a hope in hell of making it sound good. Most of the time whenever I've recorded demos with drummers who do cymbal swells, if we're on an e-kit, they won't even bother playing those sections.

For certain styles of music, an e-kit severely compromises the quality of the output; no matter how good the mix is.

As above, you might well have a point about the musicianship, especially for bands not using IEM's.

Now you have me thinking about a couple of songs that we do that have swells in the original recording. I think the drummer uses a pad for it because I don't remember ever seeing him trying to do a roll on the cymbals. I am not ordinarily looking at the drummer when we play though.

Again, let's say I don't disagree. It also comes at a cost. For similar reasons. Take your Alesis video from earlier. There truly are some absolutely shit sounds in that brain. A rock band is going to be (here's that word again!) severely held back by some of those. Whereas most rock bands can get by with a cheapish Pearl Export kit; as long as it is tuned well and has good skins on it.

When you use an e-kit, you are limited (generally speaking) to the sounds that some creator out there in the world has provided to you.

For me as a drummer, I'd rather have the Pearl Export and dial it in to my tastes, my sounds, my style. Rather than take some off the shelf Alesis crap sounding kit that I cannot tweak - although in fairness, the Strata series I worked on does sound massively better, and has my sounds in it in the first place!!

So can a band sound good with a Strata series eDrum? Just out of curiosity, what vDrum model would you place the Strata at?

People are impressed by different things. Sometimes it is technique. Sometimes it is tone. Sometimes it is the combination. I don't think you can say most people are impressed only by the impact of the drums.

I once made a bet with my entire band that all I needed to get the entire bar clapping was a kick drum and lots of power out of my subwoofers.

I play guitar. No one in their right mind would ever put me on the throne, but to win the bet I walked up on stage by myself to start the 2nd set, killed the break music. Slid the fader up on the kick to a respectable "thump you in the chest" level, and put a simple 4 on the floor while I clapped above my head.

I don't think there was a single person in the club that wasn't clapping along and cheering so I announced the band and had them come up on stage as I called them. Pretty cool show for something that was supposed to be just a bet between band members .

You are right though, different people are impressed by different things..... but an awful lot of them are impressed by a good thump in the chest .... either from a good kick drum .... or a great palm mute.

This is the other thing - go see a band in a small venue. 200 capacity. Some of these venues have really good PA's. Some of them have shit PA's. A real drumkit in the shit PA venue has way more of a chance of connecting with the audience than the e-kit does. By sheer virtue of the fact that in those kinds of venues, you can hear and feel the drums in the room without the PA even being turned on.

... and this is also a great point. eDrums ONLY work with a very good PA.

I'll get banned if I tell you what I think about churches!!

Fair enough. My wife who is VERY religious would likely agree with you.

I bet drummers don’t fucking argue about guitar gear like this.

LMFAO. Likely not.

The reasons e-kits sound bad live IMO are almost by 100%:

- Bad "feeling" kits resulting in the drummer not being able to play as he/she would on a real kit. Part of that would also be:

- Inaccurate physical representations of the real deal. Mesh heads still can't deal with some techniques, cymbals feel vastly different and don't allow for the same technical performances, either.

- Choice of sampled kits. I have played a whole plethora of e-kit shows in the last decades - and even with the tech specs and options getting better and better, I have not even once heard a sampled kit that would sound like the real deal (and yes, I'm pretty much comparing apples to apples as in only refering to IEM gigs). Which is actually kinda astounding as I have a whole lot of sampled kits in plugin formats actually sounding better. But no, once an e-kit comes in, most drummers apparently feel forced to "improve" whatever it might be. So much that the loaded patches can't even sound like a natural kit anymore.
There's EQ and compression on pretty much anything, add the ocassional gate and obviously reverb. Also add to this that, once possible, at least some drummers seem to feel the need to switch kits inmidst gigs - which is fine for some sparsely used special samples, but just sucks for the entire kit (for the same reasons it's usually utter nonsense to use 974 amp models during a gig, even if it's a cover act).

Great points. The biggest issue I have had with eDrums is the drummers having the incessant need to change patches needlessly resulting in poorly mixed drums from one song to the next.

All the drummers I have worked with in my own band over the last .... 15 years have played exclusively eDrums in both practice and gigging, so they haven't had issues adjusting. Most of the drummers I know have an eKit at home or even one they use on gigs when the venue is sensitive to the higher volumes associated with the acoustic kit. I think it is getting pretty common for drummers to feel MORE at home on an eKit, but still, there are plenty of examples of drummers that are not.

 

[sashimi]

Why don’t you post a video of your band playing a gig with e drums @OneEng?

Should shut us up if it’s working as well as you say it is, right?

Spoiler

 

[MirrorProfiles]

So, for the last time and for clarification, these are the very things I said would play very little (if any) roles in a live context (or rather: would not get transported through the PA properly anyway):



Does anyone really think that the drums of whatever rock act would sound so different between two gigs on the same stage because it rained before one show? Sure, they *will* sound different. But will anyone in the audience be able to spot it? No.
Same goes for the "resonances and behaviours that happen between drums, stands, heads etc". Yes, these are almost key elements once it comes to recordings. And no, for the largest part they're obviously not present in sampled/modeled e-kit patches.
But again: In a live context (which is what we're talking about here), none of these really matter because most often they're not transported through the sound system. Sure, a real drum set being what it is, you can't dial out the various "inbetween" resonances of, say, repeatedly hit cymbals. They're part of the deal (and fortunately so). Yet, all these are not even remotely the "make it or break it" factors in this very real vs. electronic live drums discussion...



And neither are these. Again something potentially crucial on recordings.

The reasons e-kits sound bad live IMO are almost by 100%:

- Bad "feeling" kits resulting in the drummer not being able to play as he/she would on a real kit. Part of that would also be:

- Inaccurate physical representations of the real deal. Mesh heads still can't deal with some techniques, cymbals feel vastly different and don't allow for the same technical performances, either.

- Choice of sampled kits. I have played a whole plethora of e-kit shows in the last decades - and even with the tech specs and options getting better and better, I have not even once heard a sampled kit that would sound like the real deal (and yes, I'm pretty much comparing apples to apples as in only refering to IEM gigs). Which is actually kinda astounding as I have a whole lot of sampled kits in plugin formats actually sounding better. But no, once an e-kit comes in, most drummers apparently feel forced to "improve" whatever it might be. So much that the loaded patches can't even sound like a natural kit anymore.
There's EQ and compression on pretty much anything, add the ocassional gate and obviously reverb. Also add to this that, once possible, at least some drummers seem to feel the need to switch kits inmidst gigs - which is fine for some sparsely used special samples, but just sucks for the entire kit (for the same reasons it's usually utter nonsense to use 974 amp models during a gig, even if it's a cover act).

Totally missing the point being made. You’re essentially arguing with yourself here.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Let’s abandon the "smaller venue gig" for just a minute. At the very top of the food chain, the majority of top touring bands are using triggers and either mixing the natural sound of the drums with the triggered sounds ..... or completely replacing the sound with the triggered sound. This is ironically (for this group) much more prevalent in metal bands (that impact I was talking about earlier). Of course jazz and blues are different.

absolutely not the case. Only ever seen some metal bands use them live, and it’s for a very particular sound that you can hear a mile off.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Totally missing the point being made. You’re essentially arguing with yourself here.

Meh.

 

[HotRats]

@OneEng; You seem to worry mostly about how a so called "FOH engineer" can make a shitty cover band consisting of mediocre musicians (including said "FOH engineer") playing mediocre versions of too often played cover songs can get away with the least effort sounding at least half decent on a ferry with too much liquor being served. In such a setting, I agree using today's e-drums instead of acoustic drums and your other takes perhaps could make some sense.

But when you want to experience real musicians playing live interacting with each other and with the audience, other factors than convenience for the "FOH engineer" come into play.

Well said, we can close this thread now.

This is the other thing - go see a band in a small venue. 200 capacity. Some of these venues have really good PA's. Some of them have shit PA's. A real drumkit in the shit PA venue has way more of a chance of connecting with the audience than the e-kit does. By sheer virtue of the fact that in those kinds of venues, you can hear and feel the drums in the room without the PA even being turned on.

Acoustic drums soind great in tiny venues I hear it happen several times a month

Both things are so true.

There are stages where acoustic drums might not sound all that good but this is true for any other instrument and PA system.

 

[Orvillain]

So can a band sound good with a Strata series eDrum?

Yes. If I recall correctly, a couple of kits were used at the Superbowl a year or so ago? I forget when.

Just out of curiosity, what vDrum model would you place the Strata at?

Probably the TD-27, and similar variants. Bear in mind, my primary responsibility was managing the implementation of the sound engine in the module - not hardware design. But the hihat plays really well. Much much MUCH better than the Strike did, and much better than the Roland TD-20 did, which I have a lot of experience with since it was the in-house kit at FXpansion. We also had a DDrums setup back then, and various 2box setups.

Point is, why would top bands do this if samples were crap live?

Noteably, they're not doing it for their cymbals, only their shells. But the reality is, there are lots of reasons other than sound that they might choose to do this. Maybe their drum tech died in a freak yachting accident, or maybe they just decided they can't be arsed to tune the drums, or maybe they're working with Lars and need to add a delay to his kick drum to simulate double kick because he can't do it anymore. Who knows.

But the truth is, we don't really have numbers on how many acts at various levels are or are not using triggers. Certainly a lot are. But we don't have a percentage for it.

There's certainly reasons to do it when it comes to sound. It does make it easier to get a predictable sound if you outright replace the kick. But this is a very different thing than switching to an e-kit. Triggers should be a separate discussion in my opinion.

Now you have me thinking about a couple of songs that we do that have swells in the original recording.

There's certain things you can't do on an e-kit, that was really my point. If your samples don't have a stick shot sample in them (when I did BFD Jazz Noir, this was an explicit requirement that the team set) then you can't do that sound. If you've got a Toontrack library that is pre 2019ish, and you love the sound of the kicks and snares in the kit, but the hihat doesn't have as many articulations or open states as the newer libraries, then suddenly you're gonna have to go off and figure that out. Likewise if the brain doesn't give you mallets or hot-rods too.

I am not ordinarily looking at the drummer when we play though.

Not even in rehearsals?

I don't think there was a single person in the club that wasn't clapping along and cheering so I announced the band and had them come up on stage as I called them. Pretty cool show for something that was supposed to be just a bet between band members .

I've had similar experiences. It is very off-putting when the crowd are clapping in 4/4, and the band are playing in 11/8 !!

All the drummers I have worked with in my own band over the last .... 15 years have played exclusively eDrums in both practice and gigging, so they haven't had issues adjusting. Most of the drummers I know have an eKit at home or even one they use on gigs when the venue is sensitive to the higher volumes associated with the acoustic kit. I think it is getting pretty common for drummers to feel MORE at home on an eKit, but still, there are plenty of examples of drummers that are not.

15 years is a long time man. Are you sure you actually remember how good a well tuned acoustic kit with a great drummer can sound?? I'm not being a dick there, I'm genuinely curious! If the majority of your experiences these days are with eDrums, then maybe you're missing a trick.

 

[OneEng]

Not even in rehearsals?

I make everyone face out at rehearsals so that they get used to playing like we gig. So ... not usually. On the times when we turn around though, I have a big black cymbal between me and the drummer so I can't really see much of what he is doing. I suppose I could move over a few feet so I can see him more clearly next time!

15 years is a long time man. Are you sure you actually remember how good a well tuned acoustic kit with a great drummer can sound?? I'm not being a dick there, I'm genuinely curious! If the majority of your experiences these days are with eDrums, then maybe you're missing a trick.

Yea, it's a good amount of time for sure and I am getting a little leaky in the memory department .

Thanks for the comparison to the vDrum. I have a friend that has a TD50 and my current drummer is using the TD30's. I think the 27's digital pads for cymbals are likely much better, but we definitely aren't giving up the 8 outputs. This lets me mix the drums on the mixer which is definitely needed IMO. I suspect that to step up from his TD30's he would be looking at the TD50's and he has 2 drum sets (one for backup) so it is definitely a big expense for him to upgrade.

 

[metropolis_4]

One more anecdote from personal experience:

I recently played a choir concert with a small orchestra. The first rehearsal the drums were too loud in the very echo-y old cathedral where the concert was going to be held, so at the second rehearsal the drummer brought in e-drums to control volume.

The e-drums sounded so unnatural in the house mix with all of the real orchestral instruments and voices that everyone hated it. Even the FOH sound tech hated it. The e-drums just weren’t capable of blending correctly with everything else.

It sounded like when you have a meeting and everyone is there in the room, but there’s that one guy who is remote and so you’re hearing his voice through laptop speakers

So the decision was to go back to real drums for the concerts. The drummer pulled back on his dynamics and everything sounded so much better.

@OneEng to your point about the importance of vocals in the mix, I play for choir concerts a few times a year and in that setting the vocals are all that really matters. It’s a vocal concert and the instrumentalists are strictly there to accompany them, so the vocals mix in FOH is the highest priority. Almost every one of these shows I’ve done has used real drums. If the drums were causing any problems with vocal mix in the house nobody would allow it. The choir director runs the show and all they care about is the vocals in the mix. They would never allow an instrument to be too loud in the mix. Yet somehow the real drums work on this setting.

You can’t expect me to believe that real drums work well in that setting where the FOH vocal mix is all anyone cares about, but they can’t work in a cover band

 

[HotRats]

This is all I got from last gig, at least for now, not very useful other than hearing me screwing up my solo, . My daughter recorded the perfect moment, hahahaha.

Had to crop it to cut out othe players faces.

The voice you hear at the end is my daughter saying (about me) "the face of happiness you have, really!" and then "I don't think it will be heard, I hope not"

 

[DrewJD82]

This is all I got from last gig, at least for now, not very useful other than hearing me screwing up my solo, . My daughter recorded the perfect moment, hahahaha.

Had to crop it to cut out othe players faces.

The voice you hear at the end is my daughter saying (about me) "the face of happiness you have, really!" and then "I don't think it will be heard, I hope not"

Man, I totally wish I could tell that were “Home Sweet Home” but the drums were overpowering the vocal mic the whole time and I couldn’t hear her singing the lyrics.

 

[OneEng]

This is all I got from last gig, at least for now, not very useful other than hearing me screwing up my solo, . My daughter recorded the perfect moment, hahahaha.

Had to crop it to cut out othe players faces.

The voice you hear at the end is my daughter saying (about me) "the face of happiness you have, really!" and then "I don't think it will be heard, I hope not"

That's a pretty good mix! The drums were Alesis?

 

[HotRats]

That's a pretty good mix! The drums were Alesis?

The sound man is good, he he's the man that always do the sound for the other band we where sharing the stage with.
PA is just basic stuff, 2 Fbt subs and 4 Fbt speakers

Yes the drums are Alesis, strike model I believe.

 

[JiveTurkey]

 

[Orvillain]

This is all I got from last gig, at least for now, not very useful other than hearing me screwing up my solo, . My daughter recorded the perfect moment, hahahaha.

Had to crop it to cut out othe players faces.

The voice you hear at the end is my daughter saying (about me) "the face of happiness you have, really!" and then "I don't think it will be heard, I hope not"

Honestly, that hihat is just offensive to my ears. The lack of bloom, the lack of variation in the texture, the lack of resonance.

 

[HotRats]

Honestly, that hihat is just offensive to my ears. The lack of bloom, the lack of variation in the texture, the lack of resonance.

I know, as I've wrote after the gig, cymbals sounded like shit to me, they are the worst offenders but we can't say that the overall result isn't decent (by decent I mean passable, acceptable...I'm saying this because I'm not sure the english word decent has the same connotation as the Italian word decente)

You get a decent/passable/acceptable but totally uninspiring sound from that thing.

I'd personally never choose e-drums over an acoustic kit in that situation, makes no sense at all.

 

[Orvillain]

I know, as I've wrote after the gig, cymbals sounded like shit to me, they are the worst offenders but we can't say that the overall result isn't decent (by decent I mean passable, acceptable...I'm saying this because I'm not sure the english word decent has the same connotation as the Italian word decente)

You get a decent/passable/acceptable but totally uninspiring sound from that thing.

I'd personally never choose e-drums over an acoustic kit in that situation, makes no sense at all.

Passable in the same way that plugging a Fulltone OCD into a Fender FM15 would be passable.

All that video makes me want to do is send you a "sorry for your loss" sympathy card

(sorry, yes I know I'm being a dick!)

 

[paisleywookiee]

I know, as I've wrote after the gig, cymbals sounded like shit to me, they are the worst offenders but we can't say that the overall result isn't decent (by decent I mean passable, acceptable...I'm saying this because I'm not sure the english word decent has the same connotation as the Italian word decente)

You get a decent/passable/acceptable but totally uninspiring sound from that thing.

I'd personally never choose e-drums over an acoustic kit in that situation, makes no sense at all.

I agree. Great performance, but the drums don’t sound that great, particularly the cymbals.