E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[metropolis_4]

You have no idea what kind of place this is, but thanks for your opinion. I suppose you are one of those here that would have turned down a gig because the venue was going to make you play at a lower volume (even a good paying gig ..... which these days is hard to find for a full band)?

The band I was mixing gigs every weekend and sometimes during the week. They are in high demand and get paid well for the venues they play. All the snark in this thread is laughable. Comments from the peanut gallery from a bunch of non-gigging musicians.

This is absolutely the issue. I spent my first decade of gigging trying to figure out why all the venues were saying we were too loud. No matter what I did to the PA, it was still too loud. It was the drummer (and to a lesser extent guitar amps). Once I got rid of the drummer (who was a friend of mine and still is) and got a drummer that used vDrums, our stage volume problems went away and we sounded great out front AND the "too loud" complaints went completely away.

It drives people away. That is a pretty good indicator of how "good" it sounds.

I can't even count the times I have seen a band with high stage volume gig a venue where the first 2 rows of tables closest to the stage are empty all night because people can't stand to be that close.

Despite the Orvillian haram and their non-stop non-sensical rants, there have been a few people that have expressed good reasons why eDrums make a great improvement to most bands for live performance FOH sound.

The price of a good eDrum kit has also come down, and they no longer look (and feel) like a fisher price toy. For anyone reading this thread and thinking about eDrums, they are pretty amazing these days.

To continue this thread’s tradition of trading anecdote for anecdote, and opinion for opinion:

No, they all still feel like fisher price toys. I don’t know a single drummer who doesn’t hate the way they feel. Even the ones who use them frequently. That doesn’t mean they’re not useful, but let’s be honest.

My favorite drummer to work with is so in-demand people usually book him 4-6 months in advance and his schedule is always packed. Everyone wants him. I’ve played gigs with him that are crazy things like playing Queen in a small living room with un-mic’d vocals and no PA and he made everything balance perfectly. And he almost exclusively uses acoustic drums.

So don’t try to tell me the only people defending acoustic drums don’t gig and don’t know what they’re talking about, and don’t try to tell me acoustic drums can’t sound amazing in small live settings. I’ve experienced it first hand enough to know better.

 

[DrewJD82]

I've said so before: The issue isn't real vs. electronic kits. The issue is drummers.

I disagree here, because e-kits are not capable of delivering what an acoustic kit does in a live mix at this point in time. Drummers CAN deliver a good, reasonable volume level if they aren’t a dumbass.

If I couldn’t tell an e-kit was being played, I’d have zero issues with them.

edit- and as far as hitting snares, there are some of us who love the sound of a snare being hit with a solid rimshot. I’ll just add “when we know it’s coming” to that, otherwise I agree, the surprise of a loud ass snare drum isn’t really appealing to anyone that I’ve never known.

 

[Mikael Dez]

You have no idea what kind of place this is, but thanks for your opinion. I suppose you are one of those here that would have turned down a gig because the venue was going to make you play at a lower volume (even a good paying gig ..... which these days is hard to find for a full band)?

The band I was mixing gigs every weekend and sometimes during the week. They are in high demand and get paid well for the venues they play. All the snark in this thread is laughable. Comments from the peanut gallery from a bunch of non-gigging musicians.

This is absolutely the issue. I spent my first decade of gigging trying to figure out why all the venues were saying we were too loud. No matter what I did to the PA, it was still too loud. It was the drummer (and to a lesser extent guitar amps). Once I got rid of the drummer (who was a friend of mine and still is) and got a drummer that used vDrums, our stage volume problems went away and we sounded great out front AND the "too loud" complaints went completely away.

It drives people away. That is a pretty good indicator of how "good" it sounds.

I can't even count the times I have seen a band with high stage volume gig a venue where the first 2 rows of tables closest to the stage are empty all night because people can't stand to be that close.

Despite the Orvillian haram and their non-stop non-sensical rants, there have been a few people that have expressed good reasons why eDrums make a great improvement to most bands for live performance FOH sound.

The price of a good eDrum kit has also come down, and they no longer look (and feel) like a fisher price toy. For anyone reading this thread and thinking about eDrums, they are pretty amazing these days.

What is an Orvillain haram? Do you know what a haram is?

 

[spawnofthesith]

 

[Sascha Franck]

NO U

In all seriousness, I haven't even once met any other musician enjoying a drummer just whacking a snare within 2m of a distance. Without musical context, it's just not pleasant on any accounts.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I disagree here, because e-kits are not capable of delivering what an acoustic kit does in a live mix at this point in time.

I didn't even say anything to contradict that.

edit- and as far as hitting snares, there are some of us who love the sound of a snare being hit with a solid rimshot.

I do so, too. But I was refering to the sound of just a heavy hit snare on its own. Without musical context. That's nothing anyone enjoys for more than a few seconds. In fact, it can even cause damage.
Musical context masks things a whole lot (and even protects against damage as our hearing adjusts to a certain threshold), but that doesn't change anything with the fact of the snare being the loudest instrument on pretty much any stage. Once drummers get that under control and only use that very incredible impact sparsely, things are fine. But from my experience, even some pretty good drummers start to lose that very control over the course of a gig/rehearsal.
Similar things go for cymbals, the second largests offenders. Get them in check and things are fine. Hammer them like a madman and everyone walks out with ringing ears.

And all of that hasn't got anything to do with taste. It's physics (or "biophysics", so to say).

Great sounding drummers with proper discipline are among the rarest breeds on earth.

 

[DrewJD82]

I didn't even say anything to contradict that.

I was disagreeing with your statement that e-kits vs acoustic drums not being the problem. I believe that’s exactly the problem.

I do so, too. But I was refering to the sound of just a heavy hit snare on its own. Without musical context. That's nothing anyone enjoys for more than a few seconds. In fact, it can even cause damage.
Musical context masks things a whole lot (and even protects against damage as our hearing adjusts to a certain threshold), but that doesn't change anything with the fact of the snare being the loudest instrument on pretty much any stage. Once drummers get that under control and only use that very incredible impact sparsely, things are fine. But from my experience, even some pretty good drummers start to lose that very control over the course of a gig/rehearsal.
Similar things go for cymbals, the second largests offenders. Get them in check and things are fine. Hammer them like a madman and everyone walks out with ringing ears.

And all of that hasn't got anything to do with taste. It's physics (or "biophysics", so to say).

Great sounding drummers with proper discipline are among the rarest breeds on earth.

I really must have lucked out with drummers my entire life.

 

[Orvillain]

In all seriousness, I haven't even once met any other musician enjoying a drummer just whacking a snare within 2m of a distance. Without musical context, it's just not pleasant on any accounts.

SO'Z UR FACE

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Drums, as with most other acoustic instruments sound great because of the way they acoustically interact with the space they are in. Crack a snare drum or a big kick in a venue and the acoustic sound just sings in a really satisfying way that is particular to THAT particular drum in that environment. Playing back a sample of another snare drum mic’d up in a totally different space through a PA does not give that same experience. Musicians don’t just hammer notes like guitar hero, they intuitively react and respond to how the instrument sounds and behaves in the room and adjust what they’re doing accordingly. Acoustic instruments are pretty forgiving in that respect, and rebalancing the performance to adapt to everything that’s going on around you is second nature. Triggering samples adds so many layers between that experience that it’s very hard to compare.

It’s very much like the bullshit Amp where I'm at discussions, it’s pointless trying to recreate that visceral feeling - the only way to achieve that is by doing it the caveman way.

I’d also say drums and cymbals do not inherently sound shit. People have been designing them and building them for thousands of years to achieve a particular sound. It’s valid not to like those sounds at all close distance, especially if you are sensitive to loud volume. But that’s not the same as drums or cymbals themselves always sounding bad.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

You have no idea what kind of place this is, but thanks for your opinion. I suppose you are one of those here that would have turned down a gig because the venue was going to make you play at a lower volume (even a good paying gig ..... which these days is hard to find for a full band)?

I absolutely turn down that type of gig. And we're booked solid until October at the moment, using drums and 1/2 stacks on all of our gigs.

 

[Orvillain]

the only way to achieve that is by doing it the caveman way.

And as ever with music, the caveman way is the fundamental gold standard for so much of how we consume and interact with music - both listening and creating.

 

[metropolis_4]

I didn't even say anything to contradict that.



I do so, too. But I was refering to the sound of just a heavy hit snare on its own. Without musical context. That's nothing anyone enjoys for more than a few seconds. In fact, it can even cause damage.
Musical context masks things a whole lot (and even protects against damage as our hearing adjusts to a certain threshold), but that doesn't change anything with the fact of the snare being the loudest instrument on pretty much any stage. Once drummers get that under control and only use that very incredible impact sparsely, things are fine. But from my experience, even some pretty good drummers start to lose that very control over the course of a gig/rehearsal.
Similar things go for cymbals, the second largests offenders. Get them in check and things are fine. Hammer them like a madman and everyone walks out with ringing ears.

And all of that hasn't got anything to do with taste. It's physics (or "biophysics", so to say).

Great sounding drummers with proper discipline are among the rarest breeds on earth.

Shall we make a list of all the things that can sound great in a song but sound terrible on their own with no context?

Snare drums don’t exactly have a corner in that market.

Do you think anyone but a guitarist would enjoy the sound of standing right next to a stack while I’m squealing pinch harmonics at full blast without being in the context of any music?

 

[metropolis_4]

Drums, as with most other acoustic instruments sound great because of the way they acoustically interact with the space they are in. Crack a snare drum or a big kick in a venue and the acoustic sound just sings in a really satisfying way that is particular to THAT particular drum in that environment. Playing back a sample of another snare drum mic’d up in a totally different space through a PA does not give that same experience. Musicians don’t just hammer notes like guitar hero, they intuitively react and respond to how the instrument sounds and behaves in the room and adjust what they’re doing accordingly. Acoustic instruments are pretty forgiving in that respect, and rebalancing the performance to adapt to everything that’s going on around you is second nature. Triggering samples adds so many layers between that experience that it’s very hard to compare.

It’s very much like the bullshit Amp where I'm at discussions, it’s pointless trying to recreate that visceral feeling - the only way to achieve that is by doing it the caveman way.

I’d also say drums and cymbals do not inherently sound shit. People have been designing them and building them for thousands of years to achieve a particular sound. It’s valid not to like those sounds at all close distance, especially if you are sensitive to loud volume. But that’s not the same as drums or cymbals themselves always sounding bad.

Reading this reminded me of how, when I’d play E-drums, I would naturally adapt my playing style to avoid the things that sound bad on them.

Like any instrument, you respond to the sounds as you’re playing and listening, and you adapt to what sounds good and what doesn’t. On e-drums that often requires learning to approach it as a totally different instrument than acoustic drums. It makes you play differently

 

[paisleywookiee]

I absolutely turn down that type of gig. And we're booked solid until October at the moment, using drums and 1/2 stacks on all of our gigs.

Clearly you’re not in Ann Arbor.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Snare drums don’t exactly have a corner in that market.

IMO snares and crashes are the worst stage offenders of the whole bunch. Drummers not having them under strict control can ruin entire, otherwise great, gigs.

 

[metropolis_4]

IMO snares and crashes are the worst stage offenders of the whole bunch. Drummers not having them under strict control can ruin entire, otherwise great, gigs.

Well yeah, but also anyone not having their instruments under control and balancing their levels with the band is a problem.

I guess I'm not sure what you were saying about standing right next to a snare, outside of the context of any music, while someone is pounding on it being an unpleasant sound and what that has to do with drums within a mix?

I would say most instruments are unpleasant to listen to from 2m away if someone is just trying to play them as loud as they can without any music

 

[OneEng]

Tables at a gig? Sounds like a shit venue.

Yea, who has ever heard of such a thing? Certainly shows how well versed you are with venues.

No amount of OneEng bluster will change the fact that I'm an industry expert when it comes to this topic.

From your mouth to God's ear. Your understanding of getting a good mix is laughable. Anyone who actually mixes for a living would laugh until they cried at your comments.

So don’t try to tell me the only people defending acoustic drums don’t gig and don’t know what they’re talking about, and don’t try to tell me acoustic drums can’t sound amazing in small live settings. I’ve experienced it first hand enough to know better.

If you have been around AT ALL, they you must also understand that loud drums (especially snare and cymbals) can easily ruin a mix. I assume you have had enough experience to know this as well.

This thread is about eDrums being used for small band gigs. They are! And their use is increasing. They sound quite good, and the MAJORITY (not all) of bands that use eDrums sound better using them because many drummers don't control their volume well with acoustic drums .... and this is out of their hands with eDrums.

I absolutely turn down that type of gig. And we're booked solid until October at the moment, using drums and 1/2 stacks on all of our gigs.

That's great for you. Glad there is so much work in your area that you can turn down gigs. It isn't like that up here in Michigan.... at least not if you actually want to get out and gig.

IMO snares and crashes are the worst stage offenders of the whole bunch. Drummers not having them under strict control can ruin entire, otherwise great, gigs.

I completely agree.

If you look back on a multi-track of a live gig you can watch the bleed through the vocal mic's that aren't being sang into and clearly hear the cymbals and snare. It is a problem that there is no FOH solution for when they get that loud near vocal mics.

 

[metropolis_4]

If you have been around AT ALL, they you must also understand that loud drums (especially snare and cymbals) can easily ruin a mix. I assume you have had enough experience to know this as well.

This thread is about eDrums being used for small band gigs. They are! And their use is increasing. They sound quite good, and the MAJORITY (not all) of bands that use eDrums sound better using them because many drummers don't control their volume well with acoustic drums .... and this is out of their hands with eDrums.

Obviously anything too loud can easily ruin a mix, and drums can easily be a culprit. But that doesn’t mean that acoustic drums == too loud drums.

Correlation doesn’t equal causation

 

[Orvillain]

From your mouth to God's ear. Your understanding of getting a good mix is laughable. Anyone who actually mixes for a living would laugh until they cried at your comments.

@MirrorProfiles you mix for a living. What do you reckon???

 

[Sascha Franck]

I guess I'm not sure what you were saying about standing right next to a snare, outside of the context of any music, while someone is pounding on it being an unpleasant sound and what that has to do with drums within a mix?

The volume of a snare IMO is pretty much the de facto measuring stick for all other instruments to adjust to. No, not to get louder but to get along. And you need to be aware that a fully hit snare is emitting an incredibly uncomfortable level already. Yes, things will be masked in context (our ears are pretty good at that), but it's a good idea to recalibrate yourself every now and then, hence listening to the sheer volume we're actually talking about in isolation. Get the snare (and cymbals) so much under control it doesn't hurt anymore when you stand in a normal distance from the drumset and the entire band will be fine.