E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[Boudoir Guitar]

Ya'll might be interested in these Edru...

I don’t think anyone in this thread has a problem with a drummer choosing to use e-drums. What they find ridiculous is the notion of telling a drummer they need to use e-drums.

 

[spawnofthesith]

I don’t think anyone in this thread has a problem with a drummer choosing to use e-drums. What they find ridiculous is the notion of telling a drummer they need to use e-drums.

Or that you can’t get a good FOH mix without using them

 

[paisleywookiee]

Or that you can’t get a good FOH mix without using them

Yeah I mean that would imply that every professional and weekend warrior gig alike (and everywhere in between) I’ve seen over the last 30+ years has had a bad FOH. That’s just not the case.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

BS. I just mixed an up-scale golf club in Ann Arbor for a band with acoustic drums. Through the early part of the gig where people were still eating and talking, the mix was crap and people complained about the volume ...... ALL BECAUSE OF THE DRUMS. Basically all I could do was keep everything audible in the mix and keep the drums out of the mic's as much as possible. It was fortunate that the sound stage was pretty big so the mics were some distance (between 10-15 ft) from the drums. This is often not the case.

The 2nd half of the night things sounded good, but the volume level was WAY higher. It was a great system (RCF speakers and a new Wing mixer). The dance floor remained packed until the band stopped playing.

It would have sounded good all night with eDrums.

There are LOTS of situations where it is practically impossible to get a good mix with acoustic drums. Move that to completely impossible if the drummer isn't very easy on the hits.

Good decision. The pack here is full of people that subscribe to the "loose and loud" equating to "good" because that is "how it is done".

It has been my experience that bands that have eDrums sound better (usually). This is directly a result of the lower stage volume. Anyone that knows anything about mixing knows how important low stage volume is to getting a good mix. Those that argue simply don't know what they are talking about.

Yes, you can get a good mix with acoustic drums; however, not in the majority of pub situations. If volume is limited, forget it. If the stage is small, forget it. If the drummer has gorilla arms .... you get the picture.

Well we certainly agree on this one. I feel the same way about eDrums. I will never hire a drummer that uses acoustic drums. I won't even audition them. For me, it would be like hiring a lead player that used an acoustic guitar. It's just the wrong tool for the job for a bar band.

Or they could just wait until people finished eating and play the gig later at the proper volume. Also, a damn golf course lounge is not a proper place for live bands It's like saying that golf balls should be made out of foam because you tried to shoot them at the bar and broke the Coors Light neon sign.

Putting live bands when/ where they don't belong is the issue here. Acoustic drums are fine at venues capable of properly hosting bands.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Or they could just wait until people finished eating and play the gig later at the proper volume. Also, a damn golf course lounge is not a proper place for live bands It's like saying that golf balls should be made out of foam because you tried to shoot them at the bar and broke the Coors Light neon sign.

Putting live bands when/ where they don't belong is the issue here. Acoustic drums are fine at venues capable of properly hosting bands.

It’s best to just ignore him and let him tucker himself out.

 

[[Nathan]]

Ya'll might be interested in these Edru...

Between him and Butch Vig we’ve got 3 arms playing eKits for rock music

 

[paisleywookiee]

Between him and Butch Vig we’ve got 3 arms playing eKits for rock music

 

[toneseeker911]

Or that you can’t get a good FOH mix without using them

Or that they don’t sound like ass.

 

[HotRats]

This Sunday night I have another gig with e-drums (gosh!), this will be my 4th one, 3rd one in a row.
We share the stage with the same band of the previous 3 times, their drummer has become a die hard e-drums advocate, I believe is @OneEng secret brother

I'll try to make a video of the outcome when the other band play.

 

[deathbyguitar]

This Sunday night I have another gig with e-drums (gosh!), this will be my 4th one, 3rd one in a row.
We share the stage with the same band of the previous 3 times, their drummer has become a die hard e-drums advocate, I believe is @OneEng secret brother

I'll try to make a video of the outcome when the other band play.

Nice. What genre of music are you playing?

 

[Sascha Franck]

I've said so before: The issue isn't real vs. electronic kits. The issue is drummers. If all drummers had the discipline (and no, I'm not even talking chops or style here) of Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, Omar Hakim and whom not, nobody would ever complain. Simply because these guys manage to sound outstanding at any venue, any level and in (pretty much any) style.
When these guys are playing (and I've seen all of them so I could actually listen to the sound of their sets, not just through the PA), they sound great to start with. Even when you stand close to them.
But enter your rehearsal room (or stage when the drums are already checked) and with your average drummer, you often just want to leave instantly. Things aren't just too loud, very often they also sound pretty bad.

Yeah, smash that snare until it starts to compress on its own - yuck, there's no uglier sound. And you gotta listen to that horrible sound at least twice for each bar over an entire evening.
Just ask a drummer to hit a snare with full energy (which is what pretty much all of them will resort to over a longer gig) a few times while standing like 2 meters away from it. Don't tell me that's a pleasant sound - because it fucking isn't. It's an ear destroying impact with a very little enjoyable frequency spectrum. And yet, that's the very sound you will have to listen to a few thousand times during a gig. What a great idea to start with.
It's a sound that cuts through the loudest cranked amp you might be using easily. And due to it's transient richness, there's no way for out ears to escape others than starting to just wimp out (which is why you hear loud beeps after long rehearsals and gigs, let alone constant tinnitus).

The (very few) great drummers I'm playing with are aware of that. They choose to bring a snare that is appropriate and no ear piercing BS (let alone a piccolo...) and they also don't hit it as if there's no tomorrow.
Same goes for the rest of the set (snares just being the most notorious offenders).

As an anecdote: 2 years ago, I had to play some gigs with a really loud drummer. Didn't help much he's half-deaf himself already. We had to practice in a horribly tight and "loud on its own" rehearsal room. And he was like "I can hardly hear myself!" - when the entire room was just a blast of incredible loud drum noise.
Guy also turned up with what was the single most horrible crash I had ever listened to. Not only was it incredibly loud, no, it also rang so fucking long it was beyond belief. So long we thought something was wrong in the PA when a song was already done. Just happened to be his dreaded crash that kept ringing (and he never dared to stop it, either).
Fortunately, all but one gig were open air shows.

I could tell endless stories about drummer completely destroying any great stage sound experience. And as has been mentioned already, it only gets worse once these dudes decide to go for IEMs. Because that's when they lose the last bits of "contenance", entering full beast mode on even the most delicate songs.

Don't get me wrong, I love real drums. I love listening to them standing sort of close. But I hate drummers without an idea of sound. And unfortunately, there gazillions of those.

 

[Orvillain]

Don't tell me that's a pleasant sound - because it fucking isn't.

Yes it is.

 

[OneEng]

Or they could just wait until people finished eating and play the gig later at the proper volume. Also, a damn golf course lounge is not a proper place for live bands It's like saying that golf balls should be made out of foam because you tried to shoot them at the bar and broke the Coors Light neon sign.

Putting live bands when/ where they don't belong is the issue here. Acoustic drums are fine at venues capable of properly hosting bands.

You have no idea what kind of place this is, but thanks for your opinion. I suppose you are one of those here that would have turned down a gig because the venue was going to make you play at a lower volume (even a good paying gig ..... which these days is hard to find for a full band)?

The band I was mixing gigs every weekend and sometimes during the week. They are in high demand and get paid well for the venues they play. All the snark in this thread is laughable. Comments from the peanut gallery from a bunch of non-gigging musicians.

I've said so before: The issue isn't real vs. electronic kits. The issue is drummers. If all drummers had the discipline (and no, I'm not even talking chops or style here) of Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, Omar Hakim and whom not, nobody would ever complain. Simply because these guys manage to sound outstanding at any venue, any level and in (pretty much any) style.
When these guys are playing (and I've seen all of them so I could actually listen to the sound of their sets, not just through the PA), they sound great to start with. Even when you stand close to them.
But enter your rehearsal room (or stage when the drums are already checked) and with your average drummer, you often just want to leave instantly. Things aren't just too loud, very often they also sound pretty bad.

Yeah, smash that snare until it starts to compress on its own - yuck, there's no uglier sound. And you gotta listen to that horrible sound at least twice for each bar over an entire evening.
Just ask a drummer to hit a snare with full energy (which is what pretty much all of them will resort to over a longer gig) a few times while standing like 2 meters away from it. Don't tell me that's a pleasant sound - because it fucking isn't. It's an ear destroying impact with a very little enjoyable frequency spectrum. And yet, that's the very sound you will have to listen to a few thousand times during a gig. What a great idea to start with.
It's a sound that cuts through the loudest cranked amp you might be using easily. And due to it's transient richness, there's no way for out ears to escape others than starting to just wimp out (which is why you hear loud beeps after long rehearsals and gigs, let alone constant tinnitus).

The (very few) great drummers I'm playing with are aware of that. They choose to bring a snare that is appropriate and no ear piercing BS (let alone a piccolo...) and they also don't hit it as if there's no tomorrow.
Same goes for the rest of the set (snares just being the most notorious offenders).

As an anecdote: 2 years ago, I had to play some gigs with a really loud drummer. Didn't help much he's half-deaf himself already. We had to practice in a horribly tight and "loud on its own" rehearsal room. And he was like "I can hardly hear myself!" - when the entire room was just a blast of incredible loud drum noise.
Guy also turned up with what was the single most horrible crash I had ever listened to. Not only was it incredibly loud, no, it also rang so fucking long it was beyond belief. So long we thought something was wrong in the PA when a song was already done. Just happened to be his dreaded crash that kept ringing (and he never dared to stop it, either).
Fortunately, all but one gig were open air shows.

I could tell endless stories about drummer completely destroying any great stage sound experience. And as has been mentioned already, it only gets worse once these dudes decide to go for IEMs. Because that's when they lose the last bits of "contenance", entering full beast mode on even the most delicate songs.

Don't get me wrong, I love real drums. I love listening to them standing sort of close. But I hate drummers without an idea of sound. And unfortunately, there gazillions of those.

This is absolutely the issue. I spent my first decade of gigging trying to figure out why all the venues were saying we were too loud. No matter what I did to the PA, it was still too loud. It was the drummer (and to a lesser extent guitar amps). Once I got rid of the drummer (who was a friend of mine and still is) and got a drummer that used vDrums, our stage volume problems went away and we sounded great out front AND the "too loud" complaints went completely away.

Yes it is.

It drives people away. That is a pretty good indicator of how "good" it sounds.

I can't even count the times I have seen a band with high stage volume gig a venue where the first 2 rows of tables closest to the stage are empty all night because people can't stand to be that close.

Despite the Orvillian haram and their non-stop non-sensical rants, there have been a few people that have expressed good reasons why eDrums make a great improvement to most bands for live performance FOH sound.

The price of a good eDrum kit has also come down, and they no longer look (and feel) like a fisher price toy. For anyone reading this thread and thinking about eDrums, they are pretty amazing these days.

 

[Orvillain]

It drives people away. That is a pretty good indicator of how "good" it sounds.

Not at my gigs.

I can't even count the times I have seen a band with high stage volume gig a venue where the first 2 rows of tables closest to the stage are empty all night because people can't stand to be that close.

Tables at a gig? Sounds like a shit venue.

Despite the Orvillian haram and their non-stop non-sensical rants, there have been a few people that have expressed good reasons why eDrums make a great improvement to most bands for live performance FOH sound.

I don't know what Orvillian haram is. Nobody does.

The price of a good eDrum kit has also come down, and they no longer look (and feel) like a fisher price toy.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. I've been involved in building one for the last 5 years.

For anyone reading this thread and thinking about eDrums, they are pretty amazing these days.

They're okay. Definitely worth having one for a home studio, or a writing studio. Worth looking into if you're a church or other community orientated venue that has to be careful about volume. They're not really relevant for most live rock music, which is the subject of this thread.

No amount of OneEng bluster will change the fact that I'm an industry expert when it comes to this topic.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Yes it is.

BS

 

[HotRats]

Nice. What genre of music are you playing?

it's a cover band, we play blues rock and rock songs.
We don't try hard to replicate the original sounds or even arrangement.

 

[DrewJD82]

All the snark in this thread is laughable. Comments from the peanut gallery from a bunch of non-gigging musicians.

For anyone keeping score here, I’ve posted 2 videos of my previous bands where I’m singing directly in front of a loud ass drummer, in shitty dive bars or smaller venues and somehow you can still hear me just fine, despite being phone vids, to back up my statements. I’ll gladly post more.

OneEng has yet to post a single shred of evidence that his claims are in any way true to reality.

 

[Orvillain]

BS

NO U

For anyone keeping score here, I’ve posted 2 videos of my previous bands where I’m singing directly in front of a loud ass drummer, in shitty dive bars or smaller venues and somehow you can still hear me just fine, despite being phone vids, to back up my statements. I’ll gladly post more.

OneEng has yet to post a single shred of evidence that his claims are in any way true to reality.

hahahahaha, I missed that quote. What a frickin' joke OneEng is.

 

[HotRats]

I've said so before: The issue isn't real vs. electronic kits. The issue is drummers. If all drummers had the discipline (and no, I'm not even talking chops or style here) of Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, Omar Hakim and whom not, nobody would ever complain. Simply because these guys manage to sound outstanding at any venue, any level and in (pretty much any) style.
When these guys are playing (and I've seen all of them so I could actually listen to the sound of their sets, not just through the PA), they sound great to start with. Even when you stand close to them.
But enter your rehearsal room (or stage when the drums are already checked) and with your average drummer, you often just want to leave instantly. Things aren't just too loud, very often they also sound pretty bad.

Yeah, smash that snare until it starts to compress on its own - yuck, there's no uglier sound. And you gotta listen to that horrible sound at least twice for each bar over an entire evening.
Just ask a drummer to hit a snare with full energy (which is what pretty much all of them will resort to over a longer gig) a few times while standing like 2 meters away from it. Don't tell me that's a pleasant sound - because it fucking isn't. It's an ear destroying impact with a very little enjoyable frequency spectrum. And yet, that's the very sound you will have to listen to a few thousand times during a gig. What a great idea to start with.
It's a sound that cuts through the loudest cranked amp you might be using easily. And due to it's transient richness, there's no way for out ears to escape others than starting to just wimp out (which is why you hear loud beeps after long rehearsals and gigs, let alone constant tinnitus).

The (very few) great drummers I'm playing with are aware of that. They choose to bring a snare that is appropriate and no ear piercing BS (let alone a piccolo...) and they also don't hit it as if there's no tomorrow.
Same goes for the rest of the set (snares just being the most notorious offenders).

As an anecdote: 2 years ago, I had to play some gigs with a really loud drummer. Didn't help much he's half-deaf himself already. We had to practice in a horribly tight and "loud on its own" rehearsal room. And he was like "I can hardly hear myself!" - when the entire room was just a blast of incredible loud drum noise.
Guy also turned up with what was the single most horrible crash I had ever listened to. Not only was it incredibly loud, no, it also rang so fucking long it was beyond belief. So long we thought something was wrong in the PA when a song was already done. Just happened to be his dreaded crash that kept ringing (and he never dared to stop it, either).
Fortunately, all but one gig were open air shows.

I could tell endless stories about drummer completely destroying any great stage sound experience. And as has been mentioned already, it only gets worse once these dudes decide to go for IEMs. Because that's when they lose the last bits of "contenance", entering full beast mode on even the most delicate songs.

Don't get me wrong, I love real drums. I love listening to them standing sort of close. But I hate drummers without an idea of sound. And unfortunately, there gazillions of those.

I agree, because there's no doubt that bad drummers sound bad no matter what and, on the other hand, good ones always sound good.
That's true for any other player of any acoustic instruments and for some electric ones too.

I've recorded all kinds of drummers on the same studio drum kit with the same mic, pres, in the same room and all the shitty ones sounded like shit. And once sliced and edited they still sounded like shit. That's an universal truth.

I'm sure we all have been tortured by bad singers or guitar players sounding like chainsaws while playing through expensive analog or digital rigs.

E-drums won't make a bad drummer sound good just like autotune won't turn a bad singer into Aretha Franklin. If you're so bad (or not yet good) that you don't understand you're putting out awful sounds, no technology that will save you.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

You have no idea what kind of place this is, but thanks for your opinion. I suppose you are one of those here that would have turned down a gig because the venue was going to make you play at a lower volume (even a good paying gig ..... which these days is hard to find for a full band)?

The band I was mixing gigs every weekend and sometimes during the week. They are in high demand and get paid well for the venues they play. All the snark in this thread is laughable. Comments from the peanut gallery from a bunch of non-gigging musicians.

This is absolutely the issue. I spent my first decade of gigging trying to figure out why all the venues were saying we were too loud. No matter what I did to the PA, it was still too loud. It was the drummer (and to a lesser extent guitar amps). Once I got rid of the drummer (who was a friend of mine and still is) and got a drummer that used vDrums, our stage volume problems went away and we sounded great out front AND the "too loud" complaints went completely away.

It drives people away. That is a pretty good indicator of how "good" it sounds.

I can't even count the times I have seen a band with high stage volume gig a venue where the first 2 rows of tables closest to the stage are empty all night because people can't stand to be that close.

Despite the Orvillian haram and their non-stop non-sensical rants, there have been a few people that have expressed good reasons why eDrums make a great improvement to most bands for live performance FOH sound.

The price of a good eDrum kit has also come down, and they no longer look (and feel) like a fisher price toy. For anyone reading this thread and thinking about eDrums, they are pretty amazing these days.

If a band wants/needs to play pop/rock music with full pop/rock band arrangement including the sound of a full drum kit played with sticks to a dinner crowd then yeah, you're gonna have to go to e-kit. No way around it. And I don't think anyone in this thread would fault somebody that was making (at least a good part of ) a living as a musician taking that kind of gig and making the compromises necessary to get a pay check, assuming one has enough of those gigs to justify the cost of the e-kit.

But that really oddball gig doesn't justify the generalized use.

Plenty of folks in this thread gig. A lot. Including in function bands. I'm old enough to have been to lots of functions with lots of different approaches to function banding and totally get that a function band has to have a way to handle dinner or cocktail hour where live music is wanted, but at a volume and in a style that lets people focus more on conversation/mingling than on feeling the music deeply/dancing/getting rowdy. I've never seen one band take the approach of "hey, we'll play radio music, in radio music arrangement/style/production, at radio volumes." as the way of dealing with that. And for good reason. That's just the least good option that a function band has at their disposal to deal with that scenario. If someone asks for that, and they're not receptive to an alternative approach that would better suit dinner, and you need the gig, AND you've got an e-kit. Go for it.