E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[OneEng]

@Orvillain,

First, thanks for providing that detailed report.

Note: in 2017 the market was fairly new and the number of eDrummers live was considerably smaller than it is today (it is roughly tripled since then I think).

A more recent study indicates that eDrums account for about 32% of the global drum market: https://www.coherentmarketinsights.com/industry-reports/electronic-drums-market

I would also guess that the revenue is about equal to the quantity as eDrums at different levels are about equal in price to their acoustic counterparts (ie, a midrange acoustic drum kit is in line with a midrange eDrum kit). Note: Acoustic kits are actually more expensive once you add in all the microphones and stands needed to mic them up.

 

[DrewJD82]

I tell you that on a tight stage the cymbal blead into the vocal mics makes it impossible to get the vocals over the mix and you simply respond that it isn't an issue.

That was probably me who said it wasn’t an issue, as well as provided examples of some seriously hard hitting drummers not fucking up the mix in dive bars with shitty PA systems and tiny stages.

But here’s another for good measure, even better because the verse vocals are all sung under speaking volume while the drums are pumping away as normal-

 

[Orvillain]

@Orvillain,

First, thanks for providing that detailed report.

Note: in 2017 the market was fairly new and the number of eDrummers live was considerably smaller than it is today (it is roughly tripled since then I think).

A more recent study indicates that eDrums account for about 32% of the global drum market: https://www.coherentmarketinsights.com/industry-reports/electronic-drums-market

I would also guess that the revenue is about equal to the quantity as eDrums at different levels are about equal in price to their acoustic counterparts (ie, a midrange acoustic drum kit is in line with a midrange eDrum kit). Note: Acoustic kits are actually more expensive once you add in all the microphones and stands needed to mic them up.

I won't disagree with that, but I don't have any later figures to bother debating over. All I will say is, I've been servicing and supporting people with e-kits since 2008. It certainly wasn't a new market. e-kits have been around decades and decades.

It just isn't a very large market.

For all the reasons I laid out on page 1, and that I've quoted several times now.

 

[sashimi]

I’m not surprised edrums account for 32% of the global market. I own a roland set and I’m not even close to being able to call myself a drummer. I’m sure there are many like me out there, with the proliferation of home recording. Guitarists and songwriters who want to be able to play a drum beat for their demos, but don’t want to play it on a midi keyboard and don’t have the space or isolation for an acoustic kit. They’re a great practice and home recording tool. But not a great live performance tool in most situations.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I’m not surprised edrums account for 32% of the global market. I own a roland set and I’m not even close to being able to call myself a drummer. I’m sure there are many like me out there, with the proliferation of home recording. Guitarists and songwriters who want to be able to play a drum beat for their demos, but don’t want to play it on a midi keyboard and don’t have the space or isolation for an acoustic kit. They’re a great practice and home recording tool. But not a great live performance tool in most situations.

Yup. I’m a guitarist, son’s a bass player, and we’ve got a kit. My drummer uses it quite a bit, but he’s got his own at home (in addition to the acoustic sets he mostly uses).

 

[metropolis_4]

Note: in 2017 the market was fairly new…

No it wasn’t. I’ve been using e-kits since the early ‘90s and they weren’t even fairly new back then

 

[metropolis_4]

Fun story about that: I was playing e-drums at a church back then and they did an outdoor event with a big stage where we used real acoustic drums for the first time.

There were four of us drumming at the event and at one point the music director stopped, looked back, and said “Wow, I can’t believe how much better you guys play and sound on real drums!”

A month later they sold the e-drums and went back to a real acoustic kit and never looked back

 

[paisleywookiee]

No it wasn’t. I’ve been using e-kits since the early ‘90s and they weren’t even fairly new back then

New to the musical Mecca that is Ann Arbor, anyway….

 

[Orvillain]

 

[OneEng]

It just isn't a very large market.

Its a third of the total market. That is far from "small" I would say.

The counter argument that people buy them, but don't use them live is an interesting one. Based solely on my observation of ~ 1 out of 5 bands gigging with them, vs 1 out of 3 owning them, I agree.... and I even know a few drummers that fit in this category (own eDrums, but gig with Acoustic).

As for drum blead not being an issue on tight stages, I suspect that my version of "vocals being on top of the mix" is not the same as many here. Last night I went to see Ghost with my daughter at Little Caesar's Arena in Detroit. They have a great wall of sound going on, but you can barely make out what the vocals are. Of course, with metal, I would argue people aren't there for the vocals anyway. As an aside, the place was about 80% packed on a Thursday night. Surprising. Also interesting is they make you lock up your phone in a secure pouch.

Oh, and it looked like they were using some pads and drum triggers as well as mic's live.... so a hybrid of eDrums and acoustics .... from a metal band.

 

[DrewJD82]

Its a third of the total market. That is far from "small" I would say.

The counter argument that people buy them, but don't use them live is an interesting one. Based solely on my observation of ~ 1 out of 5 bands gigging with them, vs 1 out of 3 owning them, I agree.... and I even know a few drummers that fit in this category (own eDrums, but gig with Acoustic).

As for drum blead not being an issue on tight stages, I suspect that my version of "vocals being on top of the mix" is not the same as many here. Last night I went to see Ghost with my daughter at Little Caesar's Arena in Detroit. They have a great wall of sound going on, but you can barely make out what the vocals are. Of course, with metal, I would argue people aren't there for the vocals anyway. As an aside, the place was about 80% packed on a Thursday night. Surprising. Also interesting is they make you lock up your phone in a secure pouch.

Oh, and it looked like they were using some pads and drum triggers as well as mic's live.... so a hybrid of eDrums and acoustics .... from a metal band.

Well, you'd be arguing in the wrong direction. Being a metalhead doesn't make people only interested in drums, guitars and bass, it's no different than any other genre. And did you actually watch the video I posted? Where the vocals end up distorting the camera mic because there was clearly no issue getting them on top of the mix? All real amps onstage coming out of 4x12's, too.

And yes, metal bands have been using pads for samples since the 80's. It's more rare to see a modern drummer in a metal band WITHOUT some kind of pads than it is to see one with just an acoustic kit. They're just not using them for acoustic drum sounds.

 

[Orvillain]

Boy am I glad those vocals are audible.

 

[Chocol8]

New to the musical Mecca that is Ann Arbor, anyway….

Nope. I was in Ann Arbor in the early 90's and I saw more than one band playing edrums live. And at least back then, Ann Arbor and the area had a pretty good music scene.

 

[Chocol8]

Boy am I glad those vocals are audible.

That's no worse than Oasis, and arguably less annoying.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Nope. I was in Ann Arbor in the early 90's and I saw more than one band playing edrums live. And at least back then, Ann Arbor and the area had a pretty good music scene.

I was there a couple times in 2005. I don’t care to go back.

 

[OneEng]

Nope. I was in Ann Arbor in the early 90's and I saw more than one band playing edrums live. And at least back then, Ann Arbor and the area had a pretty good music scene.

It's still pretty good. The Blind Pig is still going strong after all these years (you still stick to the floor when you walk ). It's not Austin or New Orleans for sure, but as far as cities with a good live music scene, its definitely in the top 25% in my experience (and I travel quite a bit).

Well, you'd be arguing in the wrong direction. Being a metalhead doesn't make people only interested in drums, guitars and bass, it's no different than any other genre. And did you actually watch the video I posted? Where the vocals end up distorting the camera mic because there was clearly no issue getting them on top of the mix? All real amps onstage coming out of 4x12's, too.

I listen and perform pretty much all genre's and have for a good solid 3 decades and more.

Metal is WAY more about impact than vocals. It's silly to pretend otherwise IMO. In fact, Ghost is one of the more vocal metal bands in general. They got that haunting harmony thing going on in pretty much every vocal .... but it is still WAY back in the mix compared to something like Country Girl by Luke Brian, or All I wanna do by Sheryl Crow.

... and yes, I did listen to your video. I tend not to say anything at all if I can't say anything nice. But that being said, this is what I think of that mix:

The drums are horribly mixed. Lots of cymbals and a thin sounding snare, but little else. There is little or no punch to the mix. The vocalist is pretty darned good, but the mix is awful. The vocals disappear in the verse then pound out on the high notes (could have used a bit of compression to tame that a little). I can BARELY hear the guitar and bass. Now, of course, this was recorded likely on a phone and that alone is going to make pretty much any band sound bad. They do have great energy and stage presence.

I think they would have sounded 10 times better with eDrums.... at least 10 times better.

Metal is ESPECIALLY dependent on good impactful drums and punchy palm mutes on guitar. eDrums are great at getting impact. Not sure why the guitars were so absent. Perhaps they weren't in the mains at all? Could be that where the person was standing the cabs weren't pointed that way. Guitar cabs are extremely directional. Some other area in the bar could have heard nothing but guitar. (A very good case for using something like Kemper/Fractal/Helix direct into the mixer. You get good guitar tone all over the venue.

I am positive others feel that the recording sounded great, and the audience was obviously entertained. If my band did any metal (we don't. About the hardest song we do is "My Own Worst Enemy" which falls more in a modern rock catagory vs Metal. I used to do Enter Sandman at the end of the night. That sounds fantastic with eDrums and a Kemper.

 

[spawnofthesith]

I’m just gonna say this…. Indoor Sports arenas just aren’t that great for a live sound mix in general and it’s not because of acoustic drums

I saw Billy Strings at the ball arena (aka the Pepsi center as it will always be in my mind lol) earlier this year (bluegrass no drums at all). Had a floor ticket and sound wise it had all the same shortcomings im typically used to in that environment

That said later in the night I got pretty much to the front of the stage and it sounded way better there than the rest of the floor

 

[spawnofthesith]

I don’t think outdoor sports arenas are much better, but better none the less. Seeing Metallica and limp bizkit at the football stadium last month LB mix was pretty bad. Metallica’s mix started out a little rough at the beginning of the night but sounded pretty good as the night went on

 

[TSJMajesty]

I don’t think outdoor sports arenas are much better, but better none the less. Seeing Metallica and limp bizkit at the football stadium last month LB mix was pretty bad. Metallica’s mix started out a little rough at the beginning of the night but sounded pretty good as the night went on

I’m just gonna say this…. Indoor Sports arenas just aren’t that great for a live sound mix in general and it’s not because of acoustic drums

I saw Billy Strings at the ball arena (aka the Pepsi center as it will always be in my mind lol) earlier this year (bluegrass no drums at all). Had a floor ticket and sound wise it had all the same shortcomings im typically used to in that environment

That said later in the night I got pretty much to the front of the stage and it sounded way better there than the rest of the floor

The 3 best shows I ever heard were at both- Journey, Pink Floyd and Muse at an indoor sports arena, and Pink Floyd at the old JFK stadium. Journey had THE best sound I ever heard (been to at least 30 concerts)..., crystal clear, and could hear everything perfectly in the mix. PF and Muse were a close 2nd/3rd.

Also saw VH twice at different indoor arenas and their sound was horrible both times. Drums & bass so overpowering I couldn't tell what the song was until the chorus.

 

[paisleywookiee]

The 3 best shows I ever heard were at both- Journey, Pink Floyd and Muse at an indoor sports arena, and Pink Floyd at the old JFK stadium. Journey had THE best sound I ever heard (been to at least 30 concerts)..., crystal clear, and could hear everything perfectly in the mix. PF and Muse were a close 2nd/3rd.

Also saw VH twice at different indoor arenas and their sound was horrible both times. Drums & bass so overpowering I couldn't tell what the song was until the chorus.

The best shows I’ve seen were DT and Vai/Satch, both at Chicago Theater. Sound was so good, I thought it was a CD being played over the PA before we walked in.

Portnoy and Arronoff were playing acoustic kits, I believe.