Dynamics..

[duzie]

An exposition on tone and tasteful playing.

There are many terms that have been written about in this thread.
With my lack of understanding them I was wondering how Michaels solo is perceived.
Damn right an exposition

 

[DieSchmalle]

There are many terms that have been written about in this thread.
With my lack of understanding them I was wondering how Michaels solo is perceived.
Damn right an exposition

Side note: It is also an exposition on how to use reverb on a live recording.

 

[DrewJD82]

There's zero difference in feel between my actual EVH 50-watt and the 50-watt in the Fractal. There are some differences between my Shiva and the Fractal's Shiva because Fractal modeled the 20th Anniversary model which was built differently, I believe with more gain and some EQ tweaks, but that same exact 'drag' in the amp is there. The exact reason I don't dig my Shiva without a boost in front, it's like it can't keep up with faster playing, like the notes get stuck in the mud. Hard to describe it because it's a feel I'm trying to describe, which is present in both the amp and the model.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

There are many terms that have been written about in this thread.
With my lack of understanding them I was wondering how Michaels solo is perceived.
Damn right an exposition

There is very little of what I perceive as ‘dynamic response’ from the amp(or modeler) in that video. Not to say the amp doesn’t have great dynamic range if you use it. I just think he isn’t making use of it in that example.

Or you could say *he* is purposely, ‘dynamically’, with his hands keeping the amp response locked within a narrow range of what it could provide.
Lots of preamp gain and compression from an effect box probably. That’s the sound most players have who then describe the experience as the guitar ‘playing itself’.
At first he used his volume knob to swell and then imitate dynamic attack briefly but for the most part he is using legato and gain and string muting and varying his attack a bit here and there but largely locked in the same small window throughout (only watched the first half so not sure if he lets the thing breathe later).

And yes he is a beast, always has been. He is one of the more interesting players from his era/genre and hasn’t lost a step apparently.

 

[Orvillain]

Also, I’d say there are less than four people on this forum that have ever played a digital modeler of an amp at the same volume as the amp through the same cab in the same room seated in same position so effectively, who the fuck knows.

I do it all the time.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

I do it all the time.

So there are 2 people identified of the 4 mentioned

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I do it all the time.

We are still under four.

 

[fiftyshadesofslay]

Something I read on-line about this question was:

"For me, the biggest difference between a modeler and the real all tube amp is the "touch". Modelers are incredible for matching the tone and output of the amps they are modeling, what they lack is the ability to replicate the touch sensitivity when playing. This is due to the inherently compressed nature of digital signal processing. While most players would never tell (especially high gain players where the gain stages are already compressed) players who are at edge of breakup and use the picking hand dynamics on low input pickups can definitely hear a difference. There is a very subtle on/off effect.

A perfect demonstration of this is any dimming LED light bulb vs a dimming filament light bulb. At some point the LED will reach its cutoff voltage and turn off, while that voltage is very low it still exists. An old school filament bulb will always have a current flow as long as there is any voltage, no matter how low. The touch dynamics of any digital input is to compress or raise the small signal and lower the high signal to flatten the signal for processing. You can't get around it. While newer modelers are very good, they still have step voltage limits.

Not bashing modelers at all, they are fantastic. They just don't cover the range or to use your word the dynamics that an all analog signal chain produces.

My $0.02"

That’s bullshit

 

[fiftyshadesofslay]

And while we’re at it, the whole dynamics thing is bullshit too. It’s just tube snobs being tube snobs. Modellers do dynamics just fine.

Hell, even the crappy SS practice amp that came free with a guitar and currently resides in the teaching studio I work at “cleans up” just fine.

 

[duzie]

There is very little of what I perceive as ‘dynamic response’ from the amp(or modeler) in that video. Not to say the amp doesn’t have great dynamic range if you use it. I just think he isn’t making use of it in that example.

Or you could say *he* is purposely, ‘dynamically’, with his hands keeping the amp response locked within a narrow range of what it could provide.
Lots of preamp gain and compression from an effect box probably. That’s the sound most players have who then describe the experience as the guitar ‘playing itself’.
At first he used his volume knob to swell and then imitate dynamic attack briefly but for the most part he is using legato and gain and string muting and varying his attack a bit here and there but largely locked in the same small window throughout (only watched the first half so not sure if he lets the thing breathe later).

And yes he is a beast, always has been. He is one of the more interesting players from his era/genre and hasn’t lost a step apparently.

I appreciate your input

 

[GTR37]

To me the dynamics are most noticeable on edge of breakup tones , prior to the last 3 or 4 years that’s where modelling struggled the most IMO the high gain and sparkle clean were easier to achieve

The tubes that have the largest influence on those sounds Imo are EL34s and El84s

Hence my comment about something like a VoxAC
Vs a 5150 as far as dynamics
The EL variants will also have the most desirable breakup

 

[Tito83]

I don't know about more/less compression, IMO it's about how this compression happens that really makes a difference.

I really don't like how HX amps behave for example. UA is closer to the point I can actually enjoy playing without really thinking about it, so that's good enough for me... But I'd still say there's a difference. If I had the means I would just play real amps.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Who are the other three?

Must you ask?

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

To me the dynamics are most noticeable on edge of breakup tones , prior to the last 3 or 4 years that’s where modelling struggled the most IMO the high gain and sparkle clean were easier to achieve

The tubes that have the largest influence on those sounds Imo are EL34s and El84s

Hence my comment about something like a VoxAC
Vs a 5150 as far as dynamics
The EL variants will also have the most desirable breakup

Well that entirely depends on how the circuit was designed.
Plus whose 35s or 84s are we talking about?

When we voived the UniValve in my THD days we messed around with how far apart the sounds should be depending on power tube.

Originally when the prototype of it was shown at NAMM the differences between tubes were very little.
But that was that in the mid 90s it was getting harder and harder to find decent new 34s.
Obviously that changed by the time we finally got the production model ready in 2000.

At that point we wanted it to be enough of a different flavour when swapping.

And just as a point of reference I used to always prefer 34s, or so I thought.
In the THD Flexi that was designed around 2 12Ax7, 1 12AT7 and 2 34s bias at 25 mil per tube I preferred 3 12AX7 and 6550s run at 33 mil per tube.

Conversely in the BiValve I preferred a34 with a 6550.
And in the Uni NOS 6K6 and NOS GE5814 or 12DW7

So as with everything...it depends on the specific use case.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

 

[Sascha Franck]

I really mean the player used to real amps.. any brand …. Now plugging into a modeler. Does he/she feel it’s a modeler?

For which aspects of your (<-) guitar playing life do you need to know this?

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

For which aspects of your (<-) guitar playing life do you need to know this?

Pure interest.
And maybe what’s real and what isn’t.

Let see a tube sniffer tells me: good on you to practice but you are really practicing sub optimal because of the modeler. You just don’t have the dynamic with it.

Is that true or not?

So there is that too

But more out of interest

 

[Sascha Franck]

In order to mimic tube amp behavior, compression must be programmed into a DSP system.

Unfortunately, it's often overdone (hello GT-1000, hello several Amplitube models...), so maybe that's why people are generalizing.

 

[FuzzyAce]

So my question is not so much about: can you hear the difference between a Deluxe reverb from QC or the real amp.

I am sure 99% of people can’t.

I really mean the player used to real amps.. any brand …. Now plugging into a modeler. Does he/she feel it’s a modeler?

I guess it depends on the use case. Listening to them in a room, or through studio monitors or headphones with the tube amp mic'd up?
I could tell the difference from a real amp mic'd up vs. a modeler if I were the one playing it and feeling it in real time. Same goes if I'm playing a model through a FR cab vs. a tube amp/cab in the room. There is a difference in feel and dynamics for sure. There is a certain level of touch sensitivity with particular tube amps that's hard to replicate.

 

[deadpool_25]

I’d say there are less than four people on this forum that have ever played a digital modeler of an amp at the same volume as the amp through the same cab in the same room seated in same position so effectively, who the fuck knows.

Maybe more than you think? I’ll count myself among the few.

Fractal through amp FX loop at well over 100db is fucking glorious. In fairness it was with Mesa Dual Recs, EVH 5153s, a 6505, and a 6505+ (probably forgetting something) so not amps especially renowned for their dynamics.