Dynamics..

[mercifulfuzziness]

How true is it that with modelers there really isn’t that much dynamics compared to a real tube amp?

Just #ampcurious

 

[GTR37]

How true is it that with modelers there really isn’t that much dynamics compared to a real tube amp?

Just #ampcurious

That’s a tough question
Some modellers like the AXE do a pretty damn good job of volume roll off
The main thing that reduces dynamics in both the digital and real world will be the amount of gain or compression that specific model or circuit has

 

[shanesiegle]

I think it largely depends on the amp and which modeler and which models. My most dynamic amps ever were my Fryette Sig X and Pitbull and my Carol Ann Triptik. Using a plexi model (boosted) on my FM9 gets pretty darn close. My Fractal is better than a lot of other stuff I had over the years for that.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

How true is it that with modelers there really isn’t that much dynamics compared to a real tube amp?

Just #ampcurious

the limiting factor on dynamics for most situations is the player’s skill, not the rig.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Also, what people are looking for when they say “dynamics” is all over the place. For me, this fairly compressed tone is very dynamic. The compression changes a lot depending on how hard I’m playing; the amount of breakup changes depending on how hard I play; the sound of the reverb changes a lot with playing dynamics; highlighted by the subtle tremolo; etc. rarely is a player looking for the playing experience that offers the widest possible dynamic range because few players can control that; they are simply looking for a rig that has changes in tonal character depending on how hard/soft playing and where guitar volume knob is set. Fuzz Face is lauded because it cleans up but doesn’t get much quieter with small volume knob changes. The below clip is digital modeler with guitar volume and tone pots wide open the whole time.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

So my question is not so much about: can you hear the difference between a Deluxe reverb from QC or the real amp.

I am sure 99% of people can’t.

I really mean the player used to real amps.. any brand …. Now plugging into a modeler. Does he/she feel it’s a modeler?

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

So my question is not so much about: can you hear the difference between a Deluxe reverb from QC or the real amp.

I am sure 99% of people can’t.

I really mean the player used to real amps.. any brand …. Now plugging into a modeler. Does he/she feel it’s a modeler?

On Tuesdays, waxing moon in spring and summer yes. Also Friday and Saturday at certain hours near the winter solstice. Venus’s alignment can also impact these things. Also, I’d say there are less than four people on this forum that have ever played a digital modeler of an amp at the same volume as the amp through the same cab in the same room seated in same position so effectively, who the fuck knows.

 

[the-trooper]

Also, what people are looking for when they say “dynamics” is all over the place.

Very much this. For someone who also plays acoustic instrument dynamics on electric instrument is almost non-existent. You can not go from pianissimo to fortissimo on an electric instrument without a volume pedal. Forget about it.
And that is what "dynamics" in musical language means.

What electric guitarists often refer to as dynamics, is change in timbre when picking light vs hard. There is some volume change there, but that volume difference is a far cry from actual pp to ff.

 

[GTR37]

So my question is not so much about: can you hear the difference between a Deluxe reverb from QC or the real amp.

I am sure 99% of people can’t.

I really mean the player used to real amps.. any brand …. Now plugging into a modeler. Does he/she feel it’s a modeler?

I would say certain amps would be more perceptible
Like a DRZ or an AC30
Something like a 5150…no

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

I would say certain amps would be more perceptible
Like a DRZ or an AC30
Something like a 5150…no

Because .. why?

 

[jay mitchell]

I’d say there are less than four people on this forum that have ever played a digital modeler of an amp at the same volume as the amp through the same cab in the same room seated in same position so effectively, who the fuck knows.

Who are the other three?

 

[GTR37]

Because .. why?

Because gain will compress a signal smooth it and make it more even that kills dynamics

That’s kind of always the battle take a plexi /800
Basically 3 gain stages very open very raw but lacks the sustain and so you have to really dig in and work for it
Not so great if you play legato
But it’s pretty dynamic roll back the volume and it still cleans up pretty well

Now add a gain stage and go to a 4 stage preamp , the compression will increase easier to play and use a legato technique but what you gain in sustain you will lose in dynamics as the signal starts to be more squashed or Compressed

There are always exceptions to every rule but in general more gain = more compression = smaller dynamic range

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Who are the other three?

I assume you and Cliff. And then I gave myself a little room for error :)

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Something I read on-line about this question was:

"For me, the biggest difference between a modeler and the real all tube amp is the "touch". Modelers are incredible for matching the tone and output of the amps they are modeling, what they lack is the ability to replicate the touch sensitivity when playing. This is due to the inherently compressed nature of digital signal processing. While most players would never tell (especially high gain players where the gain stages are already compressed) players who are at edge of breakup and use the picking hand dynamics on low input pickups can definitely hear a difference. There is a very subtle on/off effect.

A perfect demonstration of this is any dimming LED light bulb vs a dimming filament light bulb. At some point the LED will reach its cutoff voltage and turn off, while that voltage is very low it still exists. An old school filament bulb will always have a current flow as long as there is any voltage, no matter how low. The touch dynamics of any digital input is to compress or raise the small signal and lower the high signal to flatten the signal for processing. You can't get around it. While newer modelers are very good, they still have step voltage limits.

Not bashing modelers at all, they are fantastic. They just don't cover the range or to use your word the dynamics that an all analog signal chain produces.

My $0.02"

 

[duzie]

Dynamics
Compressed
Squashed
Volume
Gain
What’s going on here ?
What is or isn’t happening in this clip ?

 

[laxu]

So my question is not so much about: can you hear the difference between a Deluxe reverb from QC or the real amp.

I am sure 99% of people can’t.

I really mean the player used to real amps.. any brand …. Now plugging into a modeler. Does he/she feel it’s a modeler?

Depends a lot on what the tube amp and modeler are plugged into. For the sake of discussion, let's assume that both are plugged into say a Fryette Power Station, a guitar cab, and that QC's model of a Deluxe Reverb is spot on, and we have the Deluxe Reverb that NDSP used for modeling at our disposal, and all are volume matched at a nice reasonably loud level.

In that case, I would expect the difference to be "who cares" level, if any.

Modelers in the past have gotten a bad rep for dynamics because old modelers genuinely did have issues with cleaning up with softer picking, or using the guitar volume knob. But that hasn't been an issue for I don't know, the past 15 years or more.

Modelers also tend to default to a setting where the amp is cranked, or close to it. This is often not what you can use with a real tube amp because it would be very loud. Poweramp distortion adds some compression, and usually running the modeler at a lower volume, and it can be perceived as not being as dynamic as the tube amp.

Anyone making very generalized comments like "all modelers do this" can be safely ignored, because lumping all modelers under the same flag is like saying a Peavey Triple XXX (compressed even on a clean sound!) is the same thing as a Trainwreck Express (highly dynamic and very, very loud).

 

[PLX]

What’s going on here ?

An exposition on tone and tasteful playing.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Something I read on-line about this question was:

"For me, the biggest difference between a modeler and the real all tube amp is the "touch". Modelers are incredible for matching the tone and output of the amps they are modeling, what they lack is the ability to replicate the touch sensitivity when playing. This is due to the inherently compressed nature of digital signal processing. While most players would never tell (especially high gain players where the gain stages are already compressed) players who are at edge of breakup and use the picking hand dynamics on low input pickups can definitely hear a difference. There is a very subtle on/off effect.

A perfect demonstration of this is any dimming LED light bulb vs a dimming filament light bulb. At some point the LED will reach its cutoff voltage and turn off, while that voltage is very low it still exists. An old school filament bulb will always have a current flow as long as there is any voltage, no matter how low. The touch dynamics of any digital input is to compress or raise the small signal and lower the high signal to flatten the signal for processing. You can't get around it. While newer modelers are very good, they still have step voltage limits.

Not bashing modelers at all, they are fantastic. They just don't cover the range or to use your word the dynamics that an all analog signal chain produces.

My $0.02"

The chances that this poster is comparing through the same cab at same volume in same room are…low.

And the explanation, while poetic, is nonsense.

 

[jay mitchell]

This is due to the inherently compressed nature of digital signal processing.

That is complete horseshit. Tube amps - even the cleanest ones - compress a lot. High-quality DSP systems have no intrinsic compression. In order to mimic tube amp behavior, compression must be programmed into a DSP system.

A perfect demonstration of this is any dimming LED light bulb vs a dimming filament light bulb.

No. The analogy is wrong. The entire screed is wrong on many levels.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

That is complete horseshit. Tube amps - even the cleanest ones - compress a lot. High-quality DSP systems have no intrinsic compression. In order to mimic tube amp behavior, compression must be programmed into a DSP system.

No. The analogy is wrong. The entire screed is wrong on many levels.

Don't shoot the messenger. :)