Digital Igloo (Eric Klein, YGG)

It is a shame L6 has abandoned the high end, fully digital amp space, post Vetta. It’s a hard sell though. I wonder how popular the Tonemasters are? It might merit revisiting as more people realize digital is so viable now. Interested to hear DI’s thoughts on this too.

I would not be surprised if the tide will turn at some point… As more kids grow up seeing rig rundowns of Helixes, AxeFX, Kemper, and, yes, QC rigs, the digital stuff becomes aspirational.
Tonemasters have been absolutely a hit for Fender for them to make a Super Reverb as well as Princeton Reverb versions. They can probably crank these out easily by tweaking the software and then just cramming them in the chassis they make already. IMO they are too expensive for what they are. But Fender's tube amps have gotten really expensive.

I feel there is still a space not fullfilled by the Tonemasters and the full blown multifx units. Whether that is a financially viable space I do not know. Even for say Strymon I feel the units that get sold on the used market the most are the Mobius and Iridium, either because they are too much for their needs or don't do what they were hoping for.
 
Tonemasters have been absolutely a hit for Fender for them to make a Super Reverb as well as Princeton Reverb versions. They can probably crank these out easily by tweaking the software and then just cramming them in the chassis they make already. IMO they are too expensive for what they are. But Fender's tube amps have gotten really expensive.

I feel there is still a space not fullfilled by the Tonemasters and the full blown multifx units. Whether that is a financially viable space I do not know. Even for say Strymon I feel the units that get sold on the used market the most are the Mobius and Iridium, either because they are too much for their needs or don't do what they were hoping for.
Mustang modeling is great for the $ :sofa
 
I love that there are bands who claim they simply cannot play live without Helix and Variax. (Twelve Foot Ninja was one, R.I.P. :cry:) The notion of hitting a single switch to cycle through up to 8 completely different guitars, per-string tunings, per-string volumes, amp sets, effects, and 64 parameter values—all with zero gap and perfect spillover—still boggles my mind.

And then how each knob on Variax can control whatever amp and effects parameters you want with custom min/max values, like an expression pedal under your fingers. The first time you cause a Space Echo to squeal—or your Moog synth's ladder filter cutoff and resonance to self-oscillate over MIDI—with the tone knob, nowhere near your floorboard, and the audience is all "Wha?! That's gotta be fake." Immense fun.
I'm glad to see you still carry a torch for the variax line.

I stopped buying "new" gear years ago cause there's better deals to be had 2nd hand buuuuut....

If a Variax Gen 3 ever hits the scene, that shit is coming home with daddy immediately. YUGE fan.
 
Just found this thread and read through it, interesting stuff. Thanks for answering!

I've got more questions:

Where do you see the "digital amp" going in the future? I feel this is a product that nobody has nailed yet. The way I see it, this is just a relatively compact digital amp and cab. No effects, reverb at most. No menus, a limited set of options, easy to operate. Possibly with built in poweramp and/or own speaker.
  • Yamaha THR100HD was a great thing in many ways, plagued by weird quirks and inconveniences in so many areas. I feel like it's one more iteration away from being really great with its blendable channels, stereo poweramp and simple operation.
  • Strymon Iridium has a good feature set, but its lack of high/low cut functionality for IRs is a small inconvenience and in terms of modeling it doesn't sound quite as good as some of the competition even though it does sound very good overall.
  • Universal Audio amp pedals sound good, but have very rigid cab sim options and an insanely dated feature set for a digital pedal.
  • Amplifire and Walrus Audio stuff is somewhere in between.
  • Fender Tonemaster stuff is popular as a "looks and operates like a real amp" thing but that also ditches most of the good parts of digital amps, the ability to be a shape shifter between various tones.
  • Boss Katana or Line6 Catalyst do a lot of things right but are decidedly aimed at the more budget end of the scale.
  • HX Stomp sacrifices usability for a compact and affordable form factor while also being a full blown multifx unit.
  • The analog BluGuitar Amp 1 is closer but even that doesn't quite nail it as it sucks for the direct recording features without the BluBox which in itself is good but not great (could also use low/high cut). The upcoming BluGuitar Amp X is a bit too far off towards the full blown multifx system with competition from Line6 and others already while being about as large as a FM9.
Digital amps are tricky:
  • Technologically sophisticated customers have no issue with—and generally prefer—the modular approach, where they can pick their multieffects and pair it with their choice of playback system (tube amp, SS amp, "FRFR", studio monitors, cheap plastic PA speaker marketed as ""FRFR"," etc.)
  • No amount of technology is going to convince you a 1x12 (or even 2x12) is really a 4x12. Your cab will always sound like that cab (or with Powercab+, maybe that cab with different drivers), which for some, undermines the whole point of multieffects. Therefore, your JCM800 model won't ever compete with a real JCM800 because unless you connect a 4x12, you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle
  • High quality amps are expensive, and although Fender's had success with digital amps in the $1000+ space, very few others have, at least since Vetta II. Spending upwards of $500 for a practice amp is fine, but many guitarists think expensive amps should maintain their mystique for decades, and any technology-centric amps will automatically seem outdated in a few years
  • You can't really get away with one SKU these days. To make enough customers happy, you may be looking at a 1x12 combo, 2x12 combo, head, 50-watt, 100-watt, 200-watt, matching 4x12 cab, maybe a matching 2x12 cab... many of which need to be stocked by dealers, and warehouse real estate is limited. Bass cabs are even worse—2x8? 4x8? 2x10? 4x10? 8x10? 1x12? 2x12? 4x12? 8x12? 1x15? Blegh!
  • Almost no one wants an amp with a modeler's UI/UX. They don't want a big color screen staring at the audience, which means hiding it on a top-mounted UI, but that means you can't see it, plus...
  • ...you still need to control it. That means requiring a fairly large remote with enough feedback to know what's going on, which is probably not any smaller than an HX Stomp or Stomp XL, and...
  • ...now we're back to standalone multieffects (cue sad trombone)
Most guitarists are either chasing one elusive amp tone—or—they want a wide variety of existing amp tones. IMO, a combo amp isn't really an ideal medium for the latter. A head could be connected to many different cabs, so that could get much closer. Still others want something in between—enough variety to do damage but without the option anxiety. That's where Catalyst, DT50, Katana, Mustang GTX, and others come in.

As for your list, it sort of encapsulates the eternal problem that manufacturers face. No one product is 100% perfect for anyone, much less everyone. We just try to make stuff that makes enough people happy to stay successful so we can keep making music gear for a living.
It is a shame L6 has abandoned the high end, fully digital amp space, post Vetta. It’s a hard sell though.
My next question is always this: If Line 6 announced a $2200 combo today, whether we called it "Helix [Wattage]" or "Vetta III,", would anyone actually buy it?

For a while, Variax players were clamoring for wireless VDI. Since it'd require three channels—models, mags, and a back channel for control—it'd cost at least $1000. I started a thread on the Line 6 forums and exactly one person in the thread said "Yep, I'd buy it."

See also: "Where's POD Go Bean? Where's MM4 MkII? Where's Catalyst HD [Head]?"

Turns out a lot of people love the warm and fuzzies they get knowing a product exists, but they wouldn't actually pay real money for it. A lot of smaller MI companies have come and gone because they didn't understand this. Have told this story many times before, but I whined for years on Harmony Central about how no one's made a professional level keyboard controller since the Roland A-90. Then someone finally did. Stevie Wonder bought one, and I bought one (can't be a hypocrite!), but not nearly enough other people did. Infinite Response has been gone for years now, and one of my keys broke last month.:(
I wonder how popular the Tonemasters are? It might merit revisiting as more people realize digital is so viable now.
Tonemasters perfectly nail three things that no other modeling company can pull off—nostalgia, familiarity, and the perception of authenticity. I'm not saying they don't sound great (they do) or authentic (they do), but what could Line 6, Fractal, Kemper, or BOSS possibly make to scratch that "I have a classic amp sitting in my den that looks great in Zillow ads" itch? Unless the city has a lot of Cure fans who recognize and love JC-120s? Okay, maybe Marshall could do it too, but I'm not sure they'd be interested.

Fender did exactly what they should've done, and good on 'em. Their other big advantage here is that they only need to chase one sound per SKU. That means no user complaints about how their 1x10 Princeton doesn't nail the sound/feel of a 2x12 Twin or vice versa. Really curious how they might attempt to tackle a multi-model Tonemaster—the farther they'd get away from the Fender sound, the more critical the masses would be. It's an interesting conundrum, but they seem to be selling plenty of different Tonemasters; I suspect a megamodeler version might cannibalize individual amp sales and/or bring Tonemaster's reputation for authenticity down. Maybe if they branded it differently?
I would not be surprised if the tide will turn at some point… As more kids grow up seeing rig rundowns of Helixes, AxeFX, Kemper, and, yes, QC rigs, the digital stuff becomes aspirational.
Digital really shines when you're not chasing that "wooden cabinet pointing at the back of my knees" experience. Younger guitarists often don't come from that place, and it's much easier for them to find satisfying tones with modelers.
 
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I'm glad to see you still carry a torch for the variax line.

I stopped buying "new" gear years ago cause there's better deals to be had 2nd hand buuuuut....

If a Variax Gen 3 ever hits the scene, that s**t is coming home with daddy immediately. YUGE fan.
Variax III might be a hard sell to our parent company (it's never been terribly successful), but we have some really cool ideas.
 
Digital amps are tricky:
  • Technologically sophisticated customers have no issue with—and generally prefer—the modular approach, where they can pick their multieffects and pair it with their choice of playback system (tube amp, SS amp, "FRFR", studio monitors, cheap plastic PA speaker marketed as ""FRFR"," etc.)
  • No amount of technology is going to convince you a 1x12 (or even 2x12) is really a 4x12. Your cab will always sound like that cab (or with Powercab+, maybe that cab with different drivers), which for some, undermines the whole point of multieffects. Therefore, your JCM800 model won't ever compete with a real JCM800 because unless you connect a 4x12, you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle
  • High quality amps are expensive, and although Fender's had success with digital amps in the $1000+ space, very few others have, at least since Vetta II. Spending upwards of $500 for a practice amp is fine, but many guitarists think expensive amps should maintain their mystique for decades, and any technology-centric amps will automatically seem outdated in a few years
  • You can't really get away with one SKU these days. To make enough customers happy, you may be looking at a 1x12 combo, 2x12 combo, head, 50-watt, 100-watt, 200-watt, matching 4x12 cab, maybe a matching 2x12 cab... many of which need to be stocked by dealers, and warehouse real estate is limited. Bass cabs are even worse—2x8? 4x8? 2x10? 4x10? 8x10? 1x12? 2x12? 4x12? 8x12? 1x15? Blegh!
  • Almost no one wants an amp with a modeler's UI/UX. They don't want a big color screen staring at the audience, which means hiding it on a top-mounted UI, but that means you can't see it, plus...
  • ...you still need to control it. That means requiring a fairly large remote with enough feedback to know what's going on, which is probably not any smaller than an HX Stomp or Stomp XL, and...
  • ...now we're back to standalone multieffects (cue sad trombone)
Most guitarists are either chasing one elusive amp tone—or—they want a wide variety of existing amp tones. IMO, a combo amp isn't really an ideal medium for the latter. A head could be connected to many different cabs, so that could get much closer. Still others want something in between—enough variety to do damage but without the option anxiety. That's where Catalyst, DT50, Katana, Mustang GTX, and others come in.

As for your list, it sort of encapsulates the eternal problem that manufacturers face. No one product is 100% perfect for anyone, much less everyone. We just try to make stuff that makes enough people happy to stay successful so we can keep making music gear for a living.

My next question is always this: If Line 6 announced a $2200 combo today, whether we called it "Helix [Wattage]" or "Vetta III,", would anyone actually buy it?

For a while, Variax players were clamoring for wireless VDI. Since it'd require three channels—models, mags, and a back channel for control—it'd cost at least $1000. I started a thread on the Line 6 forums and exactly one person in the thread said "Yep, I'd buy it."

See also: "Where's POD Go Bean? Where's MM4 MkII? Where's Catalyst HD [Head]?"

Turns out a lot of people love the warm and fuzzies they get knowing a product exists, but they wouldn't actually pay real money for it. A lot of smaller MI companies have come and gone because they didn't understand this. Have told this story many times before, but I whined for years on Harmony Central about how no one's made a professional level keyboard controller since the Roland A-90. Then someone finally did. Stevie Wonder bought one, and I bought one (can't be a hypocrite!), but not nearly enough other people did. Infinite Response has been gone for years now, and one of my keys broke last month.:(

Tonemasters perfectly nail three things that no other modeling company can pull off—nostalgia, familiarity, and the perception of authenticity. I'm not saying they don't sound great (they do) or authentic (they do), but what could Line 6, Fractal, Kemper, or BOSS possibly make to scratch that "I have a classic amp sitting in my den that looks great in Zillow ads" itch? Unless the city has a lot of Cure fans who recognize and love JC-120s? Okay, maybe Marshall could do it too, but I'm not sure they'd be interested.

Fender did exactly what they should've done, and good on 'em. Their other big advantage here is that they only need to chase one sound per SKU. That means no user complaints about how their 1x10 Princeton doesn't nail the sound/feel of a 2x12 Twin or vice versa. Really curious how they might attempt to tackle a multi-model Tonemaster—the farther they'd get away from the Fender sound, the more critical the masses would be. It's an interesting conundrum, but they seem to be selling plenty of different Tonemasters; I suspect a megamodeler version might cannibalize individual amp sales and/or bring Tonemaster's reputation for authenticity down. Maybe if they branded it differently?

Digital really shines when you're not chasing that "wooden cabinet pointing at the back of my knees" experience. Younger guitarists often don't come from that place, and it's much easier for them to find satisfying tones with modelers.
Good post.

Can’t help to feel for timbuck on tgp… always there and disappointed when the next cheap knockoff modeler appears and it has no stereo fx loop… but feels he needs to wait until the next flagship modeler is released.
 
Good post.

Can’t help to feel for timbuck on tgp… always there and disappointed when the next cheap knockoff modeler appears and it has no stereo fx loop… but feels he needs to wait until the next flagship modeler is released.
I'm always waiting for that FINALLY! moment where someone releases something that ticks off all the boxes for him so he can somehow find a way for it to not be an option :rofl
 
Tonemasters perfectly nail three things that no other modeling company can pull off—nostalgia, familiarity, and the perception of authenticity. I'm not saying they don't sound great (they do) or authentic (they do), but what could Line 6, Fractal, Kemper, or BOSS possibly make to scratch that "I have a classic amp sitting in my den that looks great in Zillow ads" itch? Unless the city has a lot of Cure fans who recognize and love JC-120s? Okay, maybe Marshall could do it too, but I'm not sure they'd be interested.

Fender did exactly what they should've done, and good on 'em. Their other big advantage here is that they only need to chase one sound per SKU. That means no user complaints about how their 1x10 Princeton doesn't nail the sound/feel of a 2x12 Twin or vice versa.

Digital really shines when you're not chasing that "wooden cabinet pointing at the back of my knees" experience. Younger guitarists often don't come from that place, and it's much easier for them to find satisfying tones with modelers.

Very true on all accounts. With Fender, it was basically, you want to have a Twin that looks like a Twin and sounds damn close to a Twin, but doesn't weigh as much as a Twin? Done. Who wouldn't want that (if you're a single amp Fender guy)?
 
Very true on all accounts. With Fender, it was basically, you want to have a Twin that looks like a Twin and sounds damn close to a Twin, but doesn't weigh as much as a Twin? Done. Who wouldn't want that (if you're a single amp Fender guy)?
One more product that could really use a head version.

Sorry, I need to be able to pick my own cab.
 
Fender did exactly what they should've done, and good on 'em. Their other big advantage here is that they only need to chase one sound per SKU. That means no user complaints about how their 1x10 Princeton doesn't nail the sound/feel of a 2x12 Twin or vice versa. Really curious how they might attempt to tackle a multi-model Tonemaster—the farther they'd get away from the Fender sound, the more critical the masses would be. It's an interesting conundrum, but they seem to be selling plenty of different Tonemasters; I suspect a megamodeler version might cannibalize individual amp sales and/or bring Tonemaster's reputation for authenticity down. Maybe if they branded it differently?
IMO Quilter did the concept better with their Aviator Cub. Being able to switch between a few variants of Fender tones would be all that is needed to make the Tonemasters "more than" but I understand Fender's reluctance to do something like that because they'd rather sell you three amps than 3 sounds in one. Plus you get into that speaker conundrum where the Jensen might be perfect for the Blackface sound but not the Tweed or whatever.

For me the digital amp is not necessarily something that actually looks exactly like a traditional head or combo. I'd gladly take the right pedalboard format unit for this as well. But I guess it's hard to cram into something really small considering BluGuitar has said that their Amp 1 is about as packed as it gets to fit everything it does. So instead I hope that we have more contenders in the Strymon Iridium-ish concept in the future.

I could see for example IK's ToneX being a hit if packed into a compact hardware unit where you can load your favorite profiles and have some amp-like controls for them plus a cab sim and that's it.
 
Very true on all accounts. With Fender, it was basically, you want to have a Twin that looks like a Twin and sounds damn close to a Twin, but doesn't weigh as much as a Twin? Done. Who wouldn't want that (if you're a single amp Fender guy)?
True, but usually these single amp Fender guys/fanboys are always the first to put down how bad digital modelling is
so dunno maybe they will say ohh yeah it sounds amazing because its a Fender :idk
 
Being able to switch between a few variants of Fender tones would be all that is needed to make the Tonemasters "more than" but I understand Fender's reluctance to do something like that because they'd rather sell you three amps than 3 sounds in one. Plus you get into that speaker conundrum where the Jensen might be perfect for the Blackface sound but not the Tweed or whatever.
I don't think it's a cannibalization or greed thing on Fender's part, but as soon as you have to explain why something doesn't sound or behave exactly how your least experienced customer thinks it should, you have a problem, especially if they spend time in the YouTube comment section. One amp per box, great, easy! Two or more amps per box? Okay, well read this manual or watch this video to make sure you've set everything right—or understand why the laws of physics dictate it will never be right... you get the picture.
So instead I hope that we have more contenders in the Strymon Iridium-ish concept in the future.
Purely from a UI/UX standpoint, Strymon, UA, and Walrus are all incredibly lucky in that they've released exactly three amp models each. Could you imagine if Line 6 released a WYSIWYG pedal with only three amp models? Not a single customer would be happy with the three we chose—even if we curated the most popular three from a survey or something—because everyone would know the hardware could technically run their personal favorite three, or ten, or fifty. So that means we need an LCD, which means it looks less like a traditional stompbox (and costs more), or it means hooking up a Mac/PC editor or iOS app to swap out models. But Strymon and Walrus? Flick of a toggle.

Of course Strymon's gotta be working on more amp models (maybe a high-gain Iridium?), so years from now, things may start to get a bit tweaky for them too.
I could see for example IK's ToneX being a hit if packed into a compact hardware unit where you can load your favorite profiles and have some amp-like controls for them plus a cab sim and that's it.
I'll be gobsmacked if IK doesn't release a profile player pedal—it takes very little DSP to run one; any cheap ARM could do it. Neural might too, but if I had to guess, they're instead feverishly working on a single-chip Dual Cortex to snake some of that sweet, sweet HX Stomp money. Because original ideas are hard.
 
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I'll be gobsmacked if IK doesn't release a profile player pedal—it takes very little DSP to run one; any cheap ARM could do it. Neural might too, but if I had to guess, they're instead feverishly working on a single-chip Dual Cortex to snake some of that sweet, sweet HX Stomp money. Because original ideas are hard.


They have their asses full of getting their shit together with their current flagship, and I suspect releasing anything else would seriously make their customers feel even more but hurt.
 
@the swede can you have a “flagship” if there is only one device?

Oh God Reaction GIF
 
Purely from a UI/UX standpoint, Strymon, UA, and Walrus are all incredibly lucky in that they've released exactly three amp models each. Could you imagine if Line 6 released a WYSIWYG pedal with only three amp models? Not a single customer would be happy with the three we chose—even if we curated the most popular three from a survey or something—because everyone would know the hardware could technically run their personal favorite three, or ten, or fifty. So that means we need an LCD, which means it looks less like a traditional stompbox (and costs more), or it means hooking up a Mac/PC editor or iOS app to swap out models. But Strymon and Walrus? Flick of a toggle.
This is almost precisely the reason I never looked at those pedals. Iridium.... Fender Deluxe for cleans, sure..... but an AC30? Nah.... and a Plexi?? Nah.

AC30 doesn't really live in the same family as a Marshall, and a Plexi isn't the kind of Marshall gain I would want.

If you guys put the US Delux Nrm, Revv Red, and Revv Purple into a Iridum-esque pedal.... yeah, Drew would buy it. Probably no-one else would!!

I'll be gobsmacked if IK doesn't release a profile player pedal—it takes very little DSP to run one; any cheap ARM could do it. Neural might too, but if I had to guess, they're instead feverishly working on a single-chip Dual Cortex to snake some of that sweet, sweet HX Stomp money. Because original ideas are hard.
I'd be interested in one. The hardware for their X-TIME and X-SPACE pedals was decent, but their algo's kinda fell flat for me, so I returned them within the week.

A ToneX loader along the lines of a small Iridium/Timeline sized box.. yeah, I'd be all over that. Out of the three main 'capturing' products on the market (Kemper, QC, and ToneX) ToneX is the best sounding and most accurate one IMHO.



They have their asses full of getting their s**t together with their current flagship, and I suspect releasing anything else would seriously make their customers feel even more but hurt.

Nah, it'd just be the 10 complainers that exist in the entire world. Nothing to see here. Nope. Nada.
 


They have their asses full of getting their s**t together with their current flagship, and I suspect releasing anything else would seriously make their customers feel even more but hurt.

Don’t underestimate the power of greed. Just from their Plugins strategy I can see them releasing smaller SKUs before addressing their current model.

Save Bill Gates GIF by Feliks Tomasz Konczakowski
 
Of course Strymon's gotta be working on more amp models (maybe a high-gain Iridium?), so years from now, things may start to get a bit tweaky for them too.
I think they might consider Riverside -> Iridium to be that because it works rather well.
 
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