Cheap light tube amp as modeller power amp?

[Sedaxel]

Yeah.

I'm using a small "FRFR" for stage monitoring of my modeller. It's a dB Technologies B-hype 8. It weighs 6.6kg and sounds ok. Nothing to get crazy, though.

But lately, I've been considering using a small tube amp for the same purpose, avoiding IR cabs on stage (using IRs just for PA, if micing the amp is not an option), avoiding the "impedance curve thing", and taking advantage of the actual tube power amp.

The thing would be going direct to the fx-loop return, not using the combo preamp.

For instance, a Harley Benton Tube15 weighs 11.5kg (still light). It's more than loud enough for stage monitoring, has a 12" Celestion speaker (even thought about swapping it for a neo and reduce another kg).

Dirt cheap, light, and real tube power amp and guitar speaker. And you can use amp Sims or profiles to taste.

Anyone doing this? I read about the Blackstar St. James... But I'm not sure it's worth spending so much more just for using the power amp and speaker. And I find 15W better than 50 for monitoring purposes.

Thoughts?

 

[Jarick]

Sonically I've tried running into the effects return of an amp and unless you love the sound of the amp, it often brings too much of its own character. I actually really prefer using my Blackstar Amped 1 for powering a cab with a monitor. It scales power really well, very flexible with EQ, and it also has some power tube options for different tone and feel.

For gigging purposes, I would rather do that into a Mojotone British Lite 1x12, and then run a Celestion Neo Creamback in there. Total cost brand new is probably about $1000 ($500 for the Amped, $325 for the cab, $175 for the speaker). Total weight is about 20 pounds. And no tubes to worry about.

 

[DrewJD82]

The power amp section definitely adds some differences in there. Some models will sound great with them, some need some tweaking to get there. Not sure what modeler you're on or if it allows for the disabling of the power section, but even doing that can bring some results that aren't preferred.

IE- Mesa models sound great going into the return of my Mesa Electra Dyne, but Marshall models into the same section are so bloated with low end it gives you the opposite reaction of "Hell yeah!"

 

[ragingplatypi]

Not sure if this is helpful, but over the years I found that tubes matter a lot less to me than output transformers, speakers and cabinets. That realization definitely helped with keeping the weight down by just going solid state. I still haven’t found a class D amp that is as exciting as the heavier brethren though.

I tried to figure out what the formula was to make me “happy,” but realized it was a lot like to trying to find the one perfect slice of pizza.

 

[Sedaxel]

Not sure if this is helpful, but over the years I found that tubes matter a lot less to me than output transformers, speakers and cabinets. That realization definitely helped with keeping the weight down by just going solid state. I still haven’t found a class D amp that is as exciting as the heavier brethren though.

I tried to figure out what the formula was to make me “happy,” but realized it was a lot like to trying to find the one perfect slice of pizza.

I don't really know, but if some heavy output transformers are involved, then solid state has not much advantage over tubes.

Then there's a lot of things about harmonics and whatnot sorcery that make tube power amps much louder than solid state ones (even being these several times more powerful on paper, talking about Wattage).

At the end, you realise that there's not too much difference in weight when you need certain loudness. And that's why I think about cheap tube amps. My "FRFR" doesn't give me the same feeling than when I play with my amp... Even when the sound, just the sound, is almost spot on. I use profiles of my amp, loaded in a Mooer GE250. Soundwise, I can't say the difference is the main factor. So here we go again with that "feel" thing. On stage, I don't know, the amp has that "I don't know what" factor that you don't realise until you gig again with an "FRFR" instead.

My amp is a 20W Mesa Boogie Studio .22+. Not a heavy amp at 16-18kg. But lately I've had some back issues, and that's why started to use profiles live, reducing weight as much as possible.

So... My thinking was: what if I profile just the pre of my amp, and then go into the power section of an amp with a decent speaker and loudness enough?

 

[ragingplatypi]

.

So... My thinking was: what if I profile just the pre of my amp, and then go into the power section of an amp with a decent speaker and loudness enough?

It could work, but it makes me think of the what Line 6 folks argument about why they don’t have separate power amp models because preamps and poweramps interact with each other in both directions. If I was in your shoes I would profile the preamp and go to a guitar store with as many amps as possible and see what happens.

 

[JiveTurkey]

How are you avoiding the impedance curve thing by using a tube power amp?

 

[JiveTurkey]

Also; 15 watt tube power amp is going to be gross. Better to have more power and not need vs. the opposite.

 

[Sedaxel]

How are you avoiding the impedance curve thing by using a tube power amp?

Well, you avoid the problem of modellers that don't have it well solved. What good get is a real impedance curve... Even when it's maybe not the best you could have. Or am I wrong?

 

[Sedaxel]

Also; 15 watt tube power amp is going to be gross. Better to have more power and not need vs. the opposite.

My amp is 20W and for monitoring on stage I've never gone past 4/10 on the master volume.

A 15W tube amp Will carry me to the same situation for sure.

 

[FuzzyAce]

I'm of the mindset if I were to use a modeler live, I'd have the power as clean as possible with a FR speaker. Let the modeler do its thing without adding too much on the back end.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Well, you avoid the problem of modellers that don't have it well solved. What good get is a real impedance curve... Even when it's maybe not the best you could have. Or am I wrong?

My amp is 20W and for monitoring on stage I've never gone past 4/10 on the master volume.

A 15W tube amp Will carry me to the same situation for sure.

I think if you are at a point where you are analyzing this gear to this level; you are walking yourself into another set of caveats/compromises.

 

[Sedaxel]

I'm of the mindset if I were to use a modeler live, I'd have the power as clean as possible with a FR speaker. Let the modeler do it's thing without without adding to much on the back end.

And that's what I've been doing lately.

Just wondering if it can be improved, since I feel something lacking.

Also, my band mate used a QC (made a profile of his own amp) from a friend, with an "FRFR" monitor, in several gigs... Just to realise that he prefers his Boogie MKII. He also feels something is lacking.

That's why I wonder if the problem is in the outer section, or the lack of a real guitar speaker, or the cab itself... IDK.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I'm of the mindset if I were to use a modeler live, I'd have the power as clean as possible with a FR speaker. Let the modeler do it's thing without adding too much on the back end.

Aka I need to cook these el84s to be heard over the rest of the band and pushing my previously glorious sounding preset/capture into sonic turd territory as a result.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Ive used full models into returns of amps for the longest time now…highly recommended.
The doubling up on powersections does add too much treble…be ready to dial your global EQ.

Lately I use captured preamps into returns…does sound a wee bit better I think…maybe it’s placebo
What I can confirm….profile of preamp of amp A into poweramp of amp A….sounds/feels 100% like playing the analog path of amp A.

I’ve used that particular HB, it’s at a venue I play…it’s doable…but it’s a small housing…so a bit boxy.
I’ve used the stJames quite a lot…the power/weight benifits are obvious, also, the cabsim is decent..saves you having to split feeds in your modeler to feed foh.

I did a comparison between an EV12 and the stJames speaker yesterday…although more then adequate…maybe the speaker is its Achilles heel…but man…the weight.

Most decent combos with a loop will work excellent, what I currently use:
Fender prosonic 22, prosonic 60, superchamp x2 (modded with a poweramp in), st James.

What I have used and sounded just fine:
Peavey valveking, egnater rebel/renegade/mesa express, Bogner alchemist, peavey classic mh, fender bassbreaker

 

[Sedaxel]

I think if you are at a point where you are analyzing this gear to this level; you are walking yourself into another set of caveats/compromises.

Nah... I just like to think about these things and experiment a little. I get fun, seriously.

 

[JiveTurkey]

And that's what I've been doing lately.

Just wondering if it can be improved, since I feel something lacking.

Also, my band mate used a QC (made a profile of his own amp) from a friend, with an ""FRFR"" monitor, in several gigs... Just to realise that he prefers his Boogie MKII. He also feels something is lacking.

That's why I wonder if the problem is in the outer section, or the lack of a real guitar speaker, or the cab itself... IDK.

I get the struggle 1000%

 

[JiveTurkey]

Nah... I just like to think about these things and experiment a little. I get fun, seriously.

I also get this struggle, 1000%

 

[Sedaxel]

Ive used full models into returns of amps for the longest time now…highly recommended.
The doubling up on powersections does add too much treble…be ready to dial your global EQ.

Lately I use captured preamps into returns…does sound a wee bit better I think…maybe it’s placebo
What I can confirm….profile of preamp of amp A into poweramp of amp A….sounds/feels 100% like playing the analog path of amp A.

I’ve used that particular HB, it’s at a venue I play…it’s doable…but it’s a small housing…so a bit boxy.
I’ve used the stJames quite a lot…the power/weight benifits are obvious, also, the cabsim is decent..saves you having to split feeds in your modeler to feed foh.

I did a comparison between an EV12 and the stJames speaker yesterday…although more then adequate…maybe the speaker is its Achilles heel…but man…the weight.

Most decent combos with a loop will work excellent, what I currently use:
Fender prosonic 22, prosonic 60, superchamp x2 (modded with a poweramp in), st James.

What I have used and sounded just fine:
Peavey valveking, egnater rebel/renegade/mesa express, Bogner alchemist, peavey classic mh, fender bassbreaker

Great info there, thanks!

 

[FuzzyAce]

Aka I need to cook these el84s to be heard over the rest of the band and pushing my previously glorious sounding preset/capture into sonic turd territory as a result.

ummm, 6V6s bruh.