Axe III dyna-cabs VS Helix VS NeuralDSP

[laxu]

Rhett Shull has entered the chat!



(Lots of hyperbole here from 7:12 as it isn't anywhere near as "unusable" as he makes out, but it does give you an idea of the on device UI)

While I think a big part of his struggles is being familiar using Axe-Edit but not the front panel, I do feel this represents the general experience of using it pretty well. If you don't use the front panel regularly it's easy to forget how to do things.

• There's a lot of "need to know" stuff and inconsistency.
  • In the Layout view you must press Edit instead of Enter to open the block for editing, contrary to 90% of other views.
  • Enter is not always "open selected thing".
  • Edit almost never does what it says on the label.
  • Up/down/left/right arrow keys in different views can mean:
    • Change preset/scene (Home).
    • Change row/column/selected item (most block editing views).
    • Go to next set of params (list views left/right).
    • Go to next 5 sliders (Graphic EQ block up/down)
    • Change graphic EQ type (Amp block input/output graphic EQ up/down, why?!)
    • ..and more.
• There's a lot of different views inside each block which means you have to take a moment to reorient yourself. I don't have a good solution to this as there's a lot of params and definitely different situations that warrant a specific layout. The large lists of parameters like the Multitap Delay block are horrible tho.
• It can be hard to keep track of where you are within your preset. Other devices that always show the grid don't have this issue at the expense of being able to show less params.
• Moving blocks/rows/columns is clearly designed to be easy for programmers to implement but not for the end user to operate.
• Cycling between blocks is an unintuitive columns -> rows behavior instead of "what is connected to this block". Again an example of what was easier to program.

On top of all that the front panel - which is largely unchanged since the first Axe-Fx - is laid out so that when you typically operate it with guitar in one hand and using the other hand to work the controls, you have to constantly shift your hand from the knobs under the screen to the navigation buttons and back. It's an inefficient layout overall. Helix at least suffers from this less as the joystick is closer to the screen as are the page buttons you need the most when editing one block.

To me Fractal dumped some of the better dedicated controls from Axe-Fx 2 like fast access to Global and I/O settings while they kept some of the worst ideas like the navigation layout and the separate Enter and Edit buttons when clicking the main wheel would do, except on FM3/9 inexplicably that one does not click.

I wonder if Fractal would have been pressed to redesign their unit before release if Helix had launched with a touchscreen? But it is what it is and the best way forward is to reduce inconsistency and improve convenience with better UI design via software updates. Eventually they'll release a 4th gen product that hopefully finally elevates the "I don't have a computer available atm" experience to a level close to Axe-Edit.

 

[Foxmeister]

To me Fractal dumped some of the better dedicated controls from Axe-Fx 2 like fast access to Global and I/O settings while they kept some of the worst ideas like the navigation layout and the separate Enter and Edit buttons when clicking the main wheel would do, except on FM3/9 inexplicably that one does not click.

The FM9 does have the click wheel - it's only missing on the FM3, which makes it even more inexplicable!

 

[Jarick]

I can create presets from scratch directly on both the Fractal and Helix without much issue. Where the Helix really has an advantage is in editing on the fly or programming snapshots and switches. You can quickly and easily assign switches to effects or add a control to a snapshot or other things on the Helix, almost intuitively. With Fractal programming the FC basically requires the editing software and making changes on the fly requires some time.

One of my favorite things with the Helix (especially the floor unit) is that you have the signal path with the effect parameters all on the same page. It's annoying to have to keep clicking back to the layout view on the Fractal and then edit button to get to an effects, then exit twice to get to scenes, then click back to layout, etc.

 

[Lysander]

E.g. dedicated amp button, using capacitive touch on a footswitch to quickly move to any blocks controlled by that footswitch, and pedal edit mode.

Helix's capacitive footprint navigation is . Makes it so straightforward to edit patches it's hard to back once you get used to it.

 

[Lysander]

The FM9 does have the click wheel - it's only missing on the FM3, which makes it even more inexplicable!

So does the Axe-FX III.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Helix's capacitive footprint navigation is . Makes it so straightforward to edit patches it's hard to back once you get used to it.

Capacitive switches are gross.

 

[Orvillain]

Capacitive switches are gross.

 

[Lysander]

Capacitive switches are gross.

 

[laxu]

Helix's capacitive footprint navigation is . Makes it so straightforward to edit patches it's hard to back once you get used to it.

It only works on the floor units though. I imagine you would get in shape if you were bending down constantly to touch capacitive footswitches on Helix Control with Helix Rack. Or you just use them barefoot - for your hippie music...

 

[the swede]

Capacitive switches are gross.

I hate when the sweat break through my socks and cap goes wild on me… I try to blame the stomp but I can’t be mad at it…

 

[Orvillain]

What kind of hobo uses his Helix with socks!?

 

[the swede]

What kind of hobo uses his Helix with socks!?

Grumpy ol farts

Like me

 

[Jarick]

What kind of hobo uses his Helix with socks!?

 

[Digital Igloo]

Well Cliff did say something about interpolation, the implication that I understood being that he went for a much larger amount of actual positions, vs. others using interpolation (I'm paraphrasing.)

No idea how many IRs Fractal is using per cab, but we spent a lot of time doing critical listening tests to ensure there was no way a user could tell whether they were listening to a combination of values that resulted in a raw IR vs. interpolation. In fact, back when it was taking 55 minutes to update to 3.50, we decided to find the ideal number of IRs that would still ensure interpolation resulted in zero negative impact on the sound. We still had to provide thousands of IRs per cab and many tens of thousands of IRs total, but IIRC, it was roughly half of the number of IRs we started with (which is why updating to 3.50 takes about 25-30 minutes instead). Our take is that there was no way to get the same granularity and experience of meticulously moving a studio locker's worth of mics around a cabinet without some interpolation... unless we provided millions of IRs, which wouldn't result in any noticeable sonic advantage anyway.

If our level of interpolation were noticeable, someone would be able to turn Helix's knobs and say "Oh, this is a raw IR. Oh, this is interpolation." They can't.

Conversely, at least one competitor (not mentioned in this thread) interpolates between four IRs per cab. At that level, yes, you can totally tell.

Still, we have all the raw data from our past (and future) cab shooting sessions, including mics not used, mic pres not used, and much longer IR lengths at higher sample rates/bit depths not supported, just to ensure they're relatively future proof. And yes, we also built custom software for our mic robots.

It only works on the floor units though. I imagine you would get in shape if you were bending down constantly to touch capacitive footswitches on Helix Control with Helix Rack. Or you just use them barefoot - for your hippie music...

I keep Helix Control on my keyboard controller specifically to speed up editing, even when using HX Edit.

 

[the swede]

I keep Helix Control on my keyboard controller specifically to speed up editing, even when using HX Edit.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Here you go.

 

[the swede]

Here you go.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Uhhhh.

Just been testing moving the mic away in the cab sections of Helix, STL Amphub, Amplitube, Nembrini amp sims and Neural DSP Gojira. STL Amphub seems to be the only ones where the moving the mic away from the speaker actually delays the mic at all. All the others are totally aligned, no matter how close or far the distance is.

I really can't understand why this is the default behaviour - surely it should be up to the user to determine the phase relationships. IMO the default state should be what happens in the real world, and if the user wants to do some trickery for a certain sound, then it should be an option. So much of these products is aimed at realism, and then when it comes to cabs, we all get so afraid of phase cancellations that we throw all of the realism in the bin?

 

[Foxmeister]

I really can't understand why this is the default behaviour - surely it should be up to the user to determine the phase relationships.

Personally I'd hate that, and I think that probably applies to most people, because it's easier to add that back in than it is to try to remove it after the event.

YMMV of course!

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Personally I'd hate that, and I think that probably applies to most people, because it's easier to add that back in than it is to try to remove it after the event.

what would you hate about having a more realistic experience with micing cabs? Are you assuming that it’s always going to sound worse?

having realistic phase cancellation’s doesn’t have to sound any better or worse than ones that have been aligned. It can be a VERY good thing. It involves listening and deciding based on what you hear in exactly the way it is now.