Anybody wanna learn Autumn Leaves/jazz standard?

Boudoir Guitar said:
- The transition from a-min to D7, the 3rd of the D (F#) really pokes out, which makes sense, I guess, since that is the note that is screaming "WE STARTED ON A-MINOR BUT THAT AIN'T HOME!!!". Choosing how/when to hit that F# really determines the flavor of spice for a line bridging across those chords.
Click to expand...

Note: There's tons of tunes using the same progression - with Am7 actually being "home". Example: Oye Como Va (Santana). Coincidentally, it's even the very same chords (Amin7 and D7). Welcome to dorian...

But anyway, apart from that, it's these very movements between thirds, sevenths and roots being responsible for the main tension/release structures within these chord progressions. Anything else is just the icing on the cake.

If you want to expand on it, I recommend playing socalled "guidelines" around these notes as their center. Just use G major material to decorate.
Here's a silly example (in Em, hence the chord here are Amin7. D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, excuse the lame bass and drums):
 
Sascha Franck said:
Note: There's tons of tunes using the same progression - with Am7 actually being "home". Example: Oye Como Va (Santana). Coincidentally, it's even the very same chords (Amin7 and D7). Welcome to dorian...

But anyway, apart from that, it's these very movements between thirds, sevenths and roots being responsible for the main tension/release structures within these chord progressions. Anything else is just the icing on the cake.

If you want to expand on it, I recommend playing socalled "guidelines" around these notes as their center. Just use G major material to decorate.
Here's a silly example (in Em, hence the chord here are Amin7. D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, excuse the lame bass and drums):
Click to expand...

Fair point on dorian. The point remains in dorian, too, though, where it is exactly that F# that is distinguishing it as dorian rather than a-minor.

On the second point, I'm less concerned about getting more musical more quickly (I honestly could care less about actually playing Autumn Leaves) and more interested in rewiring how my brain views the fretboard while improvising.

Right now the way I would describe my improvising is: "a tonal-center set of frets get light bulbs that all glow, some more strongly then others; at various points in a chord progression certain lightbulbs will glow very hot, and at other points some will go very dim."

Getting to that point was a lot of work and I'm pretty happy with my playing overall right now, but it is limiting to a degree. I'd like to get to a point where I'm seeing the fretboard more dynamically as I improvise so I feel a lot less completely-out-to-sea when a less familiar chord progression is thrown my way, and less fully anchored to "what key is this song in again?" kind of thinking.
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
Things I noticed (I was playing in E-minor -- so transpose if thinking/playing in G-minor):
- The transition from a-min to D7, the 3rd of the D (F#) really pokes out, which makes sense, I guess, since that is the note that is screaming "WE STARTED ON A-MINOR BUT THAT AIN'T HOME!!!".
Click to expand...
It's helpful to recognize that Am-D7-G is a ii-V-I in G major, and F#-7b5-B7-Em is a ii-V-i in E minor. The C that is interposed fits either and can be treated as a transition between tonal centers. A long-term improvisational goal worth pursuing is to develop a vocabulary of musical ideas (aka "motifs") that you can use with some fluency to play over ii-V-I and ii-V-i cadences. There are many ways to do that: playing around on your own, learning lots of standards (melody fragments from standards can be very useful improvisational elements), listening to soloists (I suggest not confining yourself to guitar players), etc. It doesn't matter so much the path you take to get there, just that you keep adding to your vocabulary.

Boudoir Guitar said:
- The D7 to Gmaj7 is the most natural for me to wrap my head around at the moment, probably because even within my "I'm playing in G, so of course I'm just playing the G-major scale" approach I've still naturally developed plenty of "It kinda looks like I'm just doing a descending resolution of a sus-4 chord" vocabulary over transitions back to I from IV or V chords.
Click to expand...
The strongest chord movement is upward by a fourth (equivalently, downward by a fifth). It's worth noting that the entire A section and most of the B section of AL consist of steady upward movement by diatonic fourths. The C-F# transition moves up a raised fourth (which is diatonic to Em/GM), the others a perfect fourth. Note the two tonal centers - G major and its relative minor - and think about chord tones as opposed to scales. One exercise I've found helpful is to develop a solo strictly using half notes on 1 and 3 of each bar, with each note being a chord tone. In AL, the chords are almost all one or two bars in duration, so you'll need to play two or more chord tones for each chord. Thirds and sevenths tend to capture the tonality of chords better than roots and fifths, and the sustained tones in the melody are chord tones themselves. It's very helpful to work towards the ability to arpeggiate chords from any position; for me, that's been a lifetime project.

FWIW, I don't represent having mastery over any of the above; they just constitute some of the things I've worked on and continue to work on that I think may be helpful.
 
Last edited:
AFKAEjay said:
I’m gonna bite my tongue on suggestions this is Dorian ;)

Anyway, maybe you fancy this as an exercise:
Goal: Learning the difference between the part Ami D7…and resolvement on the G…and do something that helps you see chord notes, and some vocabulary with them.

We are gonna downsize the mission to Am and G only…reason is…you can use Am thinking over D7 also. We spread out the duration of the chords…so you get a little more time.

The exercise, on each chord you play from 9 to root chromaticly, from 6 to 5 chromaticly, and we play an enclosure around the 3 using scale note up, and approach chromaticly from below. 7th position would work.

I recorded the chords first so you get what the example after is played over.
(On the couch, no amp,only iPad,…so this will have to do ;))
The melodic examples is using the above stuff only!..nothing more nothing less. Offcourse different set of notes for each chord. You will have to see the triads of Am and G on the neck Offcourse…

Maybe a fun little insight is to be had when you play Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Em (2 bars each) chords under the single note stuff I played. I was thinking Am G 4 bars each…interesting right?
Click to expand...

Thanks, this is super helpful. On the dorian bit, I simply understood Sascha as noting that the F# doesn't necessarily scream "A isn't home" since you COULD be in Dorian. This is clearly not in A-dorian, but whether one is in A-dorian, G-major, or E-minor, if the starting chord is an A-minor and then the next thing you hear is an F#, its definitely more important than the D or C in terms of establishing where you are at.
 
jay mitchell said:
It's helpful to recognize that Am-D7-G is a ii-V-I in G major, and F-7b5-B7-Em is a ii-V-i in E minor. The C that is interposed fits either and can be treated as a transition between tonal centers. A long-term improvisational goal worth pursuing is to develop a vocabulary of musical ideas (aka "motifs") that you can use with some fluency to play over ii-V-I and ii-V-i cadences. There are many ways to do that: playing around on your own, learning lots of standards (melody fragments from standards can be very useful improvisational elements), listening to soloists (I suggest not confining yourself to guitar players), etc. It doesn't matter so much the path you take to get there, just that you keep adding to your vocabulary.


The strongest chord movement is upward by a fourth (equivalently, downward by a fifth). It's worth noting that the entire A section and most of the B section of AL consist of steady upward movement by diatonic fourths. The C-F# transition moves up a raised fourth (which is diatonic to Em/GM), the others a perfect fourth. Note the two tonal centers - G major and its relative minor - and think about chord tones as opposed to scales. One exercise I've found helpful is to develop a solo strictly using half notes on 1 and 3 of each bar, with each note being a chord tone. In AL, the chords are almost all one or two bars in duration, so you'll need to play two chord tones for each chord. Thirds and sevenths tend to capture the tonality of chords better than roots and fifths, and the sustained tones in the melody are chord tones themselves. It's very helpful to work towards the ability to arpeggiate chords from any position; for me, that's been a lifetime project.

FWIW, I don't represent having mastery over any of the above; they just constitute some of the things I've worked on and continue to work on that I think may be helpful.
Click to expand...
Thanks Jay. For anyone that appreciates a little visual aid, Andy talks about some of this with a circle of 5ths/4ths on the screen at the timestamped link here:
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
Sounds great, metro!
Click to expand...

Thanks! I think the things I’d like to work on here are better ways to handle spots where one chord is held a long time and there is no melody or movement.

I’m not quite sure of the best way to fill that space.

I also feel like I could find a better way to handle the F# - B - F# over the f#mb5 at the top of the B section (I’m in e minor)

If anyone has any tips/critiques/suggestions I’d love feedback!
 
This might be of interest.
How to extrapolate 4 different chords from one diminished voicing or 4 inversions from 4 diminished voicing by moving one (or more notes)

1710592620863.png
 
Okay this morning I learned and have been working on the 7 chords of the major scale with the root on the E, A, and D (including the minor flat 5 on the VII). Really good exercise. I'm trying to memorize the positions and fingerings and be able to use those more quickly and smoothly. I think if I can do that along with getting better at memorizing the notes on the fretboard, I'll have a very good base to work from, and be able to do some simple song comping.

Not necessary Autumn Leaves, but I'm learning a ton and getting better!
 
Jarick said:
Okay this morning I learned and have been working on the 7 chords of the major scale with the root on the E, A, and D (including the minor flat 5 on the VII). Really good exercise. I'm trying to memorize the positions and fingerings and be able to use those more quickly and smoothly. I think if I can do that along with getting better at memorizing the notes on the fretboard, I'll have a very good base to work from, and be able to do some simple song comping.

Not necessary Autumn Leaves, but I'm learning a ton and getting better!
Click to expand...
When I false-started on this a few years ago, the guy I was working with had me play each chord shape along to this backing track both to internalize chord shapes and get better at learning notes on fretboard. It follows the cycle of 4ths (i.e., the cycle of 5ths backwards). There's also a minor tonality version:

 
Boudoir Guitar said:
When I false-started on this a few years ago, the guy I was working with had me play each chord shape along to this backing track both to internalize chord shapes and get better at learning notes on fretboard. It follows the cycle of 4ths (i.e., the cycle of 5ths backwards). There's also a minor tonality version:

Click to expand...


That's super helpful! I was stumbling into that yesterday but this will be a lot easier to do, and I can hit the different positions across the strings.

It's weird that I somehow never heard of any of this before. Oh well, better late than never.
 
AFKAEjay said:
There’s no right or wrong here…maybe investigate how you can make melody and comping different worlds…almost question and answer between 2 voices.
In my mind…if you play the melody with authority…you don’t NEED to put chords everywhere…you can…but leaving space is also a perfectly valid option.
Here’s a suggestion from my couch ;). The first A…descending line from roots to 3rds..a classic ;)
Click to expand...


Very cool, thanks. I’m gonna be listening to that to pull some ideas!

I think two problems I have are over-playing because I feel like I need to fill all empty space, and feeling like I can’t stop the chord/comping to throw in something melodic.
 
Jarick said:
That's super helpful! I was stumbling into that yesterday but this will be a lot easier to do, and I can hit the different positions across the strings.

It's weird that I somehow never heard of any of this before. Oh well, better late than never.
Click to expand...
I feel like, for a long time, anytime I tried to find resources to "learn jazz" it was like the Jimmy Bruno approach: "Go learn all your major/minor 7th chords, dominant seventh chords, diminished chords, arpeggios of each of those all over the neck and then come back for lesson #2". I'm sure there was better stuff within the world of jazz learning, but I didn't have the budget or time to do lessons.

I managed to fake some stuff from trying to slide in through blues like Kenny Burrell's Chitlin's Con Carne, Bags Groove, some Grant Green stuff, etc., but all of that was basically "expansion of how I can play blues" rather than really learning how to play changes.

Seems to be a lot more options out there for the joe-shmoe amateur now for actual scaffolded learning of jazz guitar.
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
I feel like, for a long time, anytime I tried to find resources to "learn jazz" it was like the Jimmy Bruno approach: "Go learn all your major/minor 7th chords, dominant seventh chords, diminished chords, arpeggios of each of those all over the neck and then come back for lesson #2". I'm sure there was better stuff within the world of jazz learning, but I didn't have the budget or time to do lessons.
Click to expand...

I always started with Truefire courses which were moving at way too slow of a pace and didn’t connect the dots. I got more out of 20 seconds of that Jens Larsen video than I did in on and off beginner lessons.

I’m actually digging the learning of 7th chords up and down the neck. Going to poke around some physical guitar books today and see if there’s other stuff that would be good to know.
 
AFKAEjay said:
Version of a master:
Click to expand...


While I can completely appreciate the mastery of the musician, and there were some very cool ideas in there, I didn’t enjoy listening to that at all.

This is a good example of my least favorite kind of jazz: throw half the melody in somewhere so we can call it Autumn Leaves and then spend 3 min soloing over the changes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top