Anybody wanna learn Autumn Leaves/jazz standard?

Ed DeGenaro said:
Well how do we usually learn? We hear something we dig, we learn it then we figure how it was used and hopefully then we see how we can misuse it.

Hear…think…play
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Yeah Ed, I think that's ideal, at least for me.

But another way is to read about something, memorize it, then try to apply it, often without feeling due to being preoccupied with the technical aspect of what you're doing, rinse and repeat.

It's an inversion of your process that goes "think...play...maybe listen maybe not."

That was my concern but once stated I don't think it's helpful for me to keep beating a dead horse.
 
Sascha Franck said:
Really, try to combine them right now already. The "rule" being to always take the shortest path from one root to the next. So Cmin7 with its root on E6 demands the F7 root to be played on A5.
The main reason for this approach is that, especially with a tune such as Autumn Leaves, you will automatically end up with close voice leading on the D and G strings - which is *the* ticket for proper jazz comping (at least as long as we're talking sort of traditional comping).
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Great advice again, thanks!

I practiced the three different 7 chord shapes with the root on the E and A strings and others on the D and G for a couple hours, and now I can kind of fake my way through some of these jazz charts a tiny bit. I can actually start to hear and make sense of these weird jazz voicings, at least cracking open the door.

This is the most progress I've made in jazz playing ever, and all in under a day!
 
Spent the morning focusing on melodic playing only over the A section chords:
- first playing root note of the current the chord on the D and G string in steady 1/4 notes
- then playing root and 7th of the current chord on D and G strings in - gawd, how do I do this: Rhythm is (swung, obviously) 1 2 3&4& 1 2 3&4&. Notes are: root root 7th root root 7th -- pretty arbitrary, though. Did several passes where it was root root root 7th 7th root. Keeping the rhythmic pattern steady is the bigger thing for me at this stage.
- Same rhythm, added a 3rd in: root root 3rd root 7th root
- Same rhythm, fixed; still sticking to only playing the root, 3rd and 7th of the current chord, but selecting notes randomly -- "improvising"

Things I noticed (I was playing in E-minor -- so transpose if thinking/playing in G-minor):
- The transition from a-min to D7, the 3rd of the D (F#) really pokes out, which makes sense, I guess, since that is the note that is screaming "WE STARTED ON A-MINOR BUT THAT AIN'T HOME!!!". Choosing how/when to hit that F# really determines the flavor of spice for a line bridging across those chords.
- The D7 to Gmaj7 is the most natural for me to wrap my head around at the moment, probably because even within my "I'm playing in G, so of course I'm just playing the G-major scale" approach I've still naturally developed plenty of "It kinda looks like I'm just doing a descending resolution of a sus-4 chord" vocabulary over transitions back to I from IV or V chords. And so having that C as the 7th note to grab on the D-chord just sort of naturally led me back into that stuff.
- I need to go back and repeat all of the above exercises while singing the notes I'm playing.
- Sticking to the D and G strings gives it a pretty linear feel and it kind of feels like I'm just moving The Minor Pentatonic Box down the neck when going from the C to F#minor chord,; Need to sort how how to do this "in one box" around the 5th-7th frets next - ability to recognize fretboard relationships vertically as well as horizontally..
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
- The transition from a-min to D7, the 3rd of the D (F#) really pokes out, which makes sense, I guess, since that is the note that is screaming "WE STARTED ON A-MINOR BUT THAT AIN'T HOME!!!". Choosing how/when to hit that F# really determines the flavor of spice for a line bridging across those chords.
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Note: There's tons of tunes using the same progression - with Am7 actually being "home". Example: Oye Como Va (Santana). Coincidentally, it's even the very same chords (Amin7 and D7). Welcome to dorian...

But anyway, apart from that, it's these very movements between thirds, sevenths and roots being responsible for the main tension/release structures within these chord progressions. Anything else is just the icing on the cake.

If you want to expand on it, I recommend playing socalled "guidelines" around these notes as their center. Just use G major material to decorate.
Here's a silly example (in Em, hence the chord here are Amin7. D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, excuse the lame bass and drums):
 
Sascha Franck said:
Note: There's tons of tunes using the same progression - with Am7 actually being "home". Example: Oye Como Va (Santana). Coincidentally, it's even the very same chords (Amin7 and D7). Welcome to dorian...

But anyway, apart from that, it's these very movements between thirds, sevenths and roots being responsible for the main tension/release structures within these chord progressions. Anything else is just the icing on the cake.

If you want to expand on it, I recommend playing socalled "guidelines" around these notes as their center. Just use G major material to decorate.
Here's a silly example (in Em, hence the chord here are Amin7. D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, excuse the lame bass and drums):
Click to expand...

Fair point on dorian. The point remains in dorian, too, though, where it is exactly that F# that is distinguishing it as dorian rather than a-minor.

On the second point, I'm less concerned about getting more musical more quickly (I honestly could care less about actually playing Autumn Leaves) and more interested in rewiring how my brain views the fretboard while improvising.

Right now the way I would describe my improvising is: "a tonal-center set of frets get light bulbs that all glow, some more strongly then others; at various points in a chord progression certain lightbulbs will glow very hot, and at other points some will go very dim."

Getting to that point was a lot of work and I'm pretty happy with my playing overall right now, but it is limiting to a degree. I'd like to get to a point where I'm seeing the fretboard more dynamically as I improvise so I feel a lot less completely-out-to-sea when a less familiar chord progression is thrown my way, and less fully anchored to "what key is this song in again?" kind of thinking.
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
Things I noticed (I was playing in E-minor -- so transpose if thinking/playing in G-minor):
- The transition from a-min to D7, the 3rd of the D (F#) really pokes out, which makes sense, I guess, since that is the note that is screaming "WE STARTED ON A-MINOR BUT THAT AIN'T HOME!!!".
Click to expand...
It's helpful to recognize that Am-D7-G is a ii-V-I in G major, and F#-7b5-B7-Em is a ii-V-i in E minor. The C that is interposed fits either and can be treated as a transition between tonal centers. A long-term improvisational goal worth pursuing is to develop a vocabulary of musical ideas (aka "motifs") that you can use with some fluency to play over ii-V-I and ii-V-i cadences. There are many ways to do that: playing around on your own, learning lots of standards (melody fragments from standards can be very useful improvisational elements), listening to soloists (I suggest not confining yourself to guitar players), etc. It doesn't matter so much the path you take to get there, just that you keep adding to your vocabulary.

Boudoir Guitar said:
- The D7 to Gmaj7 is the most natural for me to wrap my head around at the moment, probably because even within my "I'm playing in G, so of course I'm just playing the G-major scale" approach I've still naturally developed plenty of "It kinda looks like I'm just doing a descending resolution of a sus-4 chord" vocabulary over transitions back to I from IV or V chords.
Click to expand...
The strongest chord movement is upward by a fourth (equivalently, downward by a fifth). It's worth noting that the entire A section and most of the B section of AL consist of steady upward movement by diatonic fourths. The C-F# transition moves up a raised fourth (which is diatonic to Em/GM), the others a perfect fourth. Note the two tonal centers - G major and its relative minor - and think about chord tones as opposed to scales. One exercise I've found helpful is to develop a solo strictly using half notes on 1 and 3 of each bar, with each note being a chord tone. In AL, the chords are almost all one or two bars in duration, so you'll need to play two or more chord tones for each chord. Thirds and sevenths tend to capture the tonality of chords better than roots and fifths, and the sustained tones in the melody are chord tones themselves. It's very helpful to work towards the ability to arpeggiate chords from any position; for me, that's been a lifetime project.

FWIW, I don't represent having mastery over any of the above; they just constitute some of the things I've worked on and continue to work on that I think may be helpful.
 
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Boudoir Guitar said:
Fair point on dorian. The point remains in dorian, too, though, where it is exactly that F# that is distinguishing it as dorian rather than a-minor.

On the second point, I'm less concerned about getting more musical more quickly (I honestly could care less about actually playing Autumn Leaves) and more interested in rewiring how my brain views the fretboard while improvising.

Right now the way I would describe my improvising is: "a tonal-center set of frets get light bulbs that all glow, some more strongly then others; at various points in a chord progression certain lightbulbs will glow very hot, and at other points some will go very dim."

Getting to that point was a lot of work and I'm pretty happy with my playing overall right now, but it is limiting to a degree. I'd like to get to a point where I'm seeing the fretboard more dynamically as I improvise so I feel a lot less completely-out-to-sea when a less familiar chord progression is thrown my way, and less fully anchored to "what key is this song in again?" kind of thinking.
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I’m gonna bite my tongue on suggestions this is Dorian ;)

Anyway, maybe you fancy this as an exercise:
Goal: Learning the difference between the part Ami D7…and resolvement on the G…and do something that helps you see chord notes, and some vocabulary with them.

We are gonna downsize the mission to Am and G only…reason is…you can use Am thinking over D7 also. We spread out the duration of the chords…so you get a little more time.

The exercise, on each chord you play from 9 to root chromaticly, from 6 to 5 chromaticly, and we play an enclosure around the 3 using scale note up, and approach chromaticly from below. 7th position would work.

I recorded the chords first so you get what the example after is played over.
(On the couch, no amp,only iPad,…so this will have to do ;))
The melodic examples is using the above stuff only!..nothing more nothing less. Offcourse different set of notes for each chord. You will have to see the triads of Am and G on the neck Offcourse…

Maybe a fun little insight is to be had when you play Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Em (2 bars each) chords under the single note stuff I played. I was thinking Am G 4 bars each…interesting right?
 
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AFKAEjay said:
I’m gonna bite my tongue on suggestions this is Dorian ;)

Anyway, maybe you fancy this as an exercise:
Goal: Learning the difference between the part Ami D7…and resolvement on the G…and do something that helps you see chord notes, and some vocabulary with them.

We are gonna downsize the mission to Am and G only…reason is…you can use Am thinking over D7 also. We spread out the duration of the chords…so you get a little more time.

The exercise, on each chord you play from 9 to root chromaticly, from 6 to 5 chromaticly, and we play an enclosure around the 3 using scale note up, and approach chromaticly from below. 7th position would work.

I recorded the chords first so you get what the example after is played over.
(On the couch, no amp,only iPad,…so this will have to do ;))
The melodic examples is using the above stuff only!..nothing more nothing less. Offcourse different set of notes for each chord. You will have to see the triads of Am and G on the neck Offcourse…

Maybe a fun little insight is to be had when you play Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Em (2 bars each) chords under the single note stuff I played. I was thinking Am G 4 bars each…interesting right?
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Thanks, this is super helpful. On the dorian bit, I simply understood Sascha as noting that the F# doesn't necessarily scream "A isn't home" since you COULD be in Dorian. This is clearly not in A-dorian, but whether one is in A-dorian, G-major, or E-minor, if the starting chord is an A-minor and then the next thing you hear is an F#, its definitely more important than the D or C in terms of establishing where you are at.
 
jay mitchell said:
It's helpful to recognize that Am-D7-G is a ii-V-I in G major, and F-7b5-B7-Em is a ii-V-i in E minor. The C that is interposed fits either and can be treated as a transition between tonal centers. A long-term improvisational goal worth pursuing is to develop a vocabulary of musical ideas (aka "motifs") that you can use with some fluency to play over ii-V-I and ii-V-i cadences. There are many ways to do that: playing around on your own, learning lots of standards (melody fragments from standards can be very useful improvisational elements), listening to soloists (I suggest not confining yourself to guitar players), etc. It doesn't matter so much the path you take to get there, just that you keep adding to your vocabulary.


The strongest chord movement is upward by a fourth (equivalently, downward by a fifth). It's worth noting that the entire A section and most of the B section of AL consist of steady upward movement by diatonic fourths. The C-F# transition moves up a raised fourth (which is diatonic to Em/GM), the others a perfect fourth. Note the two tonal centers - G major and its relative minor - and think about chord tones as opposed to scales. One exercise I've found helpful is to develop a solo strictly using half notes on 1 and 3 of each bar, with each note being a chord tone. In AL, the chords are almost all one or two bars in duration, so you'll need to play two chord tones for each chord. Thirds and sevenths tend to capture the tonality of chords better than roots and fifths, and the sustained tones in the melody are chord tones themselves. It's very helpful to work towards the ability to arpeggiate chords from any position; for me, that's been a lifetime project.

FWIW, I don't represent having mastery over any of the above; they just constitute some of the things I've worked on and continue to work on that I think may be helpful.
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Thanks Jay. For anyone that appreciates a little visual aid, Andy talks about some of this with a circle of 5ths/4ths on the screen at the timestamped link here:
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
Sounds great, metro!
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Thanks! I think the things I’d like to work on here are better ways to handle spots where one chord is held a long time and there is no melody or movement.

I’m not quite sure of the best way to fill that space.

I also feel like I could find a better way to handle the F# - B - F# over the f#mb5 at the top of the B section (I’m in e minor)

If anyone has any tips/critiques/suggestions I’d love feedback!
 
This might be of interest.
How to extrapolate 4 different chords from one diminished voicing or 4 inversions from 4 diminished voicing by moving one (or more notes)

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metropolis_4 said:
Thanks! I think the things I’d like to work on here are better ways to handle spots where one chord is held a long time and there is no melody or movement.

I’m not quite sure of the best way to fill that space.

I also feel like I could find a better way to handle the F# - B - F# over the f#mb5 at the top of the B section (I’m in e minor)

If anyone has any tips/critiques/suggestions I’d love feedback!
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There’s no right or wrong here…maybe investigate how you can make melody and comping different worlds…almost question and answer between 2 voices.
In my mind…if you play the melody with authority…you don’t NEED to put chords everywhere…you can…but leaving space is also a perfectly valid option.
Here’s a suggestion from my couch ;). The first A…descending line from roots to 3rds..a classic ;)
 
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