What's preventing you from getting a Helix Stadium (if you really want to buy it eventually)?

[EOengineer]

ur mom is a bridge

 

[Melodioso]

every product is a bridge to the next gen.

every living creature is a bridge to the next gen.

Tim is wise.

 

[Chocol8]

every product is a bridge to the next gen.

No, many are dead ends.

every living creature is a bridge to the next gen.

No, again, many are dead ends.

Tim is wise.

 

[EOengineer]

 

[timbuck3]

every product is a bridge to the next gen.

every living creature is a bridge to the next gen.

Tim is wise.

 

[mbenigni]

Not what I said. I said it is a bridge to itself.... or more accurately, it is simply backwards compatible. Thus the "EXTREMLY EXPENSIVE" comment.

Everything is a bridge. Some bridges are longer than others.

 

[mbenigni]

I in no way meant it to be a negative comment...

Yet you repeatedly bring it up to explain your disinterest in the product.

 

[mbenigni]

No, many are dead ends.

You're not being philosophical enough. We prefer to call these "bridges to themselves."

 

[OneEng]

Everything is a bridge. Some bridges are longer than others.

View attachment 59885

[sarcasm]That is a completely intentional misrepresentation of the size of the Stadium XL!!![/sarcasm] .

 

[Digital Igloo]

In retrospect it wouldn’t have been the worst idea for them to hold this thing back a year or so to get some of the new stuff polished.

Product Managers always want one more year of development and twice the number of engineers.

I assume the floor will take over in the total compared to XL - mostly driven by price, but also form factor.

Can't speak to form factor, but Helix Floor still moves notably more units than LT does.

Line6 are the number 1 option for a LOT of people out there. Don't believe the hype. Line6 have the reach, and their technology is top notch. Forum gripes - even mine - are NOT reflective of reality.

Oh, 100%. We're all currently squatting in a tiny, goofy, filled-with-über-particular-argumentative-geeks-likely-somewhere-on-the-spectrum microcosm dedicated to expensive flagship digital guitar modeling gear. (Sheepishly raises hand: "Present.") It absolutely, positively does not reflect the music industry or music-playing public (or even electric guitar-playing public) in general. If it did, Yamaha and Line 6 would've been bankrupt decades ago.

Yeah it's pretty fucking blatant. It seems like there's a few accounts now that joined in the last few months who are specifically here to shit on L6.

Fractal fans in the YouTube comment section on Stadium videos... See, I maybe kinda get them. They're perhaps rooting for the perceived corporate underdog—propping Cliff and co. up against the nameless, faceless behemoths that are Yamaha/Line 6, Roland/BOSS, InMusic/Headrush, etc. Team Helix actually has fewer engineers than NDSP claims to have, but whatever.

Tonemaster Pro users generally seem to be chill. If they're not, I go straight to their profile and... whattayaknow, Fender employee. What the hell, this is like the third time! They don't even bother hiding it.

Helix users never pull that crap and if they ever do, we'll smack 'em down.

Kemper users seem to stick to their communities as well.

But select sycophants of another box... I don't get them at all. Their energy is dripping with crypto-startup-destroy-all-competitors-by-any-means-necessary-my-heroes-are-Patrick-Bateman-and-Jordan-Belfort-level cynicism. Fifteen years ago I might've pondered something similar, with Seinfeld's trademarked lilt: "What's the deeeaaal with these guys in bedazzled Ed Hardy t-shirts?"

TOP's new terms of service sent a bunch of people looking for another forum and it seems a few of them ended up here. As you said, there is a big difference between "I am waiting for this feature/amp/whatever" vs the vendor slogging seen in a few threads lately.

Oh, did they finally start forcing everyone to divulge MI company affiliation?

The effects haven’t been updated at all and for a new flagship device it just feels really half baked. That’s a fair view.

For the umpteenth time, Stadium absolutely has new effects; we've been developing them for years and instead of sitting on them, we released them via Helix/HX firmware updates. When we release new effects for Stadium in the future, are you gonna complain when they show up in Helix/HX as well? Because gatekeeping's for chumps.

Agoura amps can't run on Helix Core architecture; otherwise, Helix/HX would've gotten them too.

Regardless, HX amps and effects sound notably better through Stadium hardware. It's not just us; a ton of artists, engineers, and long-time users have echoed this sentiment.

I can't fathom Line 6 (being the behemoth they are) letting a little company like Fractal eat their lunch in the "bang for the buck" category they have so dominated in the past.

I've never obfuscated my admiration for Fractal, but no one's "eating our lunch." Nor do I believe Cliff even wants to eat our lunch. Line 6 certainly wants Fractal to continue to do well, as companies that operate in good faith help lift all ships.

Truth be told, Helix Stadium XL ($2199) has already sold 260% faster than Helix Floor ($1499 at launch) did, and remember, back in 2015, there were only AxeFX II (close to $3k with the remote) and the Kemper toaster (~$2400 with the remote) in this space—POD HD500X, BOSS GT-100, and Atomic AmpliFire were ~1/3 the price.

Also, Line 6 seems to undercut Fractal in price. I expect that this will continue in the future so the max I could see the SM4 sell at would be $600 to undercut the AM4's $700 price. Line 6 can do this due to higher volume (and arguably better hardware engineering designed specifically for high volume manufacturing low costs).

HX Stomp is on sale right now, but it normally sells for $700. How is Line 6 supposed to vastly upgrade its power, sound, capabilities, and UI and sell it for the same price, given the economy, DDR RAM price gouging, and thing-we're-not-supposed-to-discuss? Hell, if we were to start developing HX Stomp right now as is with zero changes, we'd likely have to sell it for $850-900.

For better or worse, sophisticated multieffects aren't commodity items like TVs. If people really insist a Stadium-level Stomp SKU must be $700-800, we'd rather develop something else. Besides, HX Stomp is still selling like hotcakes, largely because of intangibles I probably shouldn't get into here because there be sharks in these waters.

 

[EOengineer]

Product Managers always want one more year of development and twice the number of engineers.

Fair. We all want it yesterday with tomorrow’s features.

Fifteen years ago I might've pondered something similar, with Seinfeld's trademarked lilt: "What's the deeeaaal with these guys in bedazzled Ed Hardy t-shirts?"

It’s not a shirt unless there’s a sparkly flame eagle dragon tiger.

Truth be told, Helix Stadium XL ($2199) has already sold 260% faster than Helix Floor ($1499 at launch) did, and remember, back in 2015, there were only AxeFX II (close to $3k with the remote) and the Kemper toaster (~$2400 with the remote) in this space—POD HD500X, BOSS GT-100, and Atomic AmpliFire were ~1/3 the price.

Astonishing figure.

 

[Lysander]

Regardless, HX amps and effects sound notably better through Stadium hardware. It's not just us; a ton of artists, engineers, and long-time users have echoed this sentiment.

Ok, so it's not me imagining things. Had many instances of "wait, this sounds better than i remembered" loading OG Helix patches into my HXS Floor recently.

 

[Orvillain]

For the umpteenth time, Stadium absolutely has new effects; we've been developing them for years and instead of sitting on them, we released them via Helix/HX firmware updates. When we release new effects for Stadium in the future, are you gonna complain when they show up in Helix/HX as well? Because gatekeeping's for chumps.

Agoura amps can't run on Helix Core architecture; otherwise, Helix/HX would've gotten them too.

Regardless, HX amps and effects sound notably better through Stadium hardware. It's not just us; a ton of artists, engineers, and long-time users have echoed this sentiment.

Hmmmm… gotta say Eric, this gives me a bit of the sadnesses.

I and many others just spent £2000 on a new unit. The expectation with a brand-new flagship platform is that it eventually gets the best algorithms you’re capable of building, making use of the full DSP budget available.

If every new effect has to run on HX as well, that necessarily constrains what can be done. HX has far tighter DSP limits. So from a user perspective, it sounds like the ceiling for future effects on the new platform is being set by the older architecture.

That’s the part that doesn’t feel great.

Also, from an external perspective, Stadium doesn’t really have new effects yet. Any effects released before Stadium existed in my studio weren’t Stadium effects, they were Helix effects that also run on Stadium. Which is fine… but it means the new platform hasn’t actually demonstrated what it can do when it’s not constrained by HX compatibility.

If Stadium is meant to be the big new DSP playground, I think a lot of us were hoping to see effects that only it can run.

I don’t think wanting platform-specific algorithms is gatekeeping. Gatekeeping would be artificially withholding something that could run on another platform. But if an algorithm genuinely requires more DSP than HX can provide, then it’s not gatekeeping, it’s simply designing for the capabilities of the hardware.

And to be totally honest, the reason I care about this is pretty simple: I was hoping for far higher quality reverbs than what’s currently in the box. Right now, a 20-year-old Boss pedal produces reverbs that sound richer, more interesting, and more to my taste. That’s exactly the kind of area where I was expecting a new flagship DSP platform to really stretch its legs.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

[…] If every new effect has to run on HX as well, that necessarily constrains what can be done. […]

I don't think that's what Eric said. The way I understood him, the OG Helix will continue to be supplied with new effects where possible. However, he did not say that new effects would be deliberately downgraded in quality in order to still be compatible with older devices.

 

[Orvillain]

I don't think that's what Eric said. The way I understood him, the OG Helix will continue to be supplied with new effects where possible. However, he did not say that new effects would be deliberately downgraded in quality in order to still be compatible with older devices.

But the implication is there.

If I understand correctly, Helix OG uses 2 Analog Devices Sharc ADSP-21469 chips, running at 450mhz each.

We don't know what Stadium runs, but it has been suggested it offers around 2x the DSP resources of Helix OG.

So..... the kind of reverb you could build for Stadium, would easily compete and probably overtake a Fractal or Valhalla reverb in terms of realism, interest, reflection quality....

... but if you then need to have it run on the older platform..... ham... strings... everywhere!

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

But the implication is there. […]

It is not particularly fair to criticize based on assumptions.

 

[Orvillain]

It is not particularly fair to criticize based on assumptions.

It is called an inference.

 

[Lysander]

I and many others just spent £2000 on a new unit. The expectation with a brand-new flagship platform is that it eventually gets the best algorithms you’re capable of building, making use of the full DSP budget available.

If every new effect has to run on HX as well, that necessarily constrains what can be done. HX has far tighter DSP limits. So from a user perspective, it sounds like the ceiling for future effects on the new platform is being set by the older architecture.

Do you think less of the Axe FX III because it runs the same effects as the AM4?

Also, i don't know when L6 promised every new effect will run on legacy HX hardware.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Do you think less of the Axe FX III because it runs the same effects as the AM4?

Isn't there a load of effects that the AM4 doesn't/can't run? and the FM-3 runs at lower resolution for the more taxing effects and modelling.

Can't speak for Orv but I'd imagine if the Helix Stadium ran the existing effects but at a higher resolution or with deeper modelling, or had extra new effects that could only run on Stadium then he wouldn't be making the point.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

It is called an inference.

Inference…

Synonyms: assumption, interpretation, presumption, guess

Antonyms: fact, proof, reality, truth