What's preventing you from getting a Helix Stadium (if you really want to buy it eventually)?

[PorcinePicker]

That doesn’t make any sense. It’s dumb, so make sure the people being dumb feel better?

Keeping...say, all of the chorus algorithms together and not labeling some of them as mildly challenged...is controversial?

 

[mbenigni]

Let me clarify - all of these comments were specifically in the context of “but there wasn’t much improvement in sounds from II to III and people still bought it?!?”

If you own a Toyota Camry and someone shows you a Lexus (whatever a comparable but fancier Lexus sedan is), even if the Lexus is in budget a lot of folks will probably think "man, nice car!! But...I've only got 60k miles on this thing and it's pretty great."

If you own a Geo Tracker and someone shows you a Chevy Tahoe, and the Tahoe is in your budget...

Nothing in any of my posts has meant to belittle any of the improvements in Stadium. If anything, its meant to praise OG Helix and slag off the Axe Fx II.

Car analogies LOL!

Sorry, I may have misinterpreted your comment re: "anyone who cares what the presets sound like" as relating to Focus View corners, clips, etc. I might care about those things, depending on how well-curated (meaningful?) they are.

 

[Dez]

 

[mbenigni]

The "weeeeee I have a killer touchscreen" factor is great. If I can get that on a Stomp; I'm all about it.

Q(cough)C(cough)M.

 

[OneEng]

To that point, the $700 AM4 would make a $2500 Axe-FX III also collect dust in my closet (if I owned one, that is). That's not really a ding on the larger unit just because of the price gap. For probably 90 percent of gigging/recording needs, An Axe-FX III is not nearly four times better-suited than an AM4.

The AM4 is an incredible balance of capability and price, and I'm absolutely sure it peeled off some Stadium (and QC. and ToneMaster Pro. And Kemper....) sales. If a guitarist is looking for a new digital rig in 2025/2026, they would have to have some specific use cases/capabilities they want to not put an AM4 near the top of their list.

One could argue (as you are) that AM4 being a really great product does not mean that others are "less" of a good product.

My personal opinion is that this is exactly true. As a consumer, I have a specific set of needs. There are a range of products at different prices that will meet those needs to varying degrees. As an example (my checklist)

• Minimum 4 buttons for live configuration within a song
• Good low, mid, and high gain amp tone (the latter being the least important)
• Great verbs and delays
• Easy to get to a tone that works within a specific song (mostly covers)
• MIDI compatible with CME MIDI WiDi (or equivelent) allowing setlist control from BandHelper on an Android tablet over BT
• Solid performance and stability (no glitches ever) for live performance
• Decent compressor and noise gate
• Easy to setup, tear down, and carry.
• Seamless switching within a song

While other things are "cool" .... and Lord knows Stadium is full of "cool", they don't land in the "need" category for gigging at least. I will say that "cool" definately puts the Stadium into the GAS catagory big time.

AM4 (unlike Kemper Player) just hits lots of these points and does it at $700 vs >$1000. That's going to be a market disruptor IMO.

 

[mbenigni]

The AM4 just happened to come out of the box with a bunch of my favorite amps and had the shiny new-to-me Fractal modeling so it wasn’t really a fair fight for Stadium.

Not to belabour (someone else's) point, but this really should have been a fair fight, per the shiny new Agoura models. It circles us back to the point about too much of the content being legacy HX. Not my hill to die on (perhaps timbuck's?) but anyway...

Maybe in a few months.

 

[EOengineer]

Seems perfectly fair to me. Why isn't it fair?

Not to belabour (someone else's) point, but this really should have been a fair fight, per the shiny new Agoura models.

Fractal released the AM4 using a component modeling system that they have been continually refining since 2018 and featuring a library of amps and effects that they have a 7 year head start on L6. L6 released a continuation of the Helix ecosystem 3 months ago with their first attempt at a component based modeling solution and a much smaller initial selection of models. L6 communicated this all clearly and IMO set the proper expectation regarding what Stadium would have out of the box and what post sale support and development will look like.

I don't really get the fixation on Stadium not having all new everything when it released when L6 stated emphatically and repeatedly that wouldn't be the case. Did you not believe them?

 

[mbenigni]

Fractal released the AM4 using a component modeling system that they have been continually refining since 2018 and featuring a library of amps and effects that they have a 7 year head start on L6. L6 released a continuation of the Helix ecosystem 3 months ago with their first attempt at a component based modeling solution and a much smaller initial selection of models. L6 communicated this all clearly and IMO set the proper expectation regarding what Stadium would have out of the box and what post sale support and development will look like.

I don't really get the fixation on Stadium not having all new everything when it released when L6 stated emphatically and repeatedly that wouldn't be the case. Did you not believe them?

I thought "someone else's point" and "not my hill to die on" were pretty clear. Or did you not believe me?

Admittedly, I may have been confused by your "shiny and new to me" comment, which seems at odds with "continually refining since 2018", but for the "for me" bit. Regardless, FAS vs. whatever combination of Agoura and HX is not only a fair fight; it's the only fight we've got... for the time being.

 

[EOengineer]

I thought "someone else's point" and "not my hill to die on" was pretty clear. Or did you not believe me?

I get that it’s not your hill to die on, but if you’re echoing another’s point, you’re adopting that position regardless of how you may attempt to wiggle out of it.

 

[Jarick]

Let me clarify - all of these comments were specifically in the context of “but there wasn’t much improvement in sounds from II to III and people still bought it?!?”

If you own a Toyota Camry and someone shows you a Lexus (whatever a comparable but fancier Lexus sedan is), even if the Lexus is in budget a lot of folks will probably think "man, nice car!! But...I've only got 60k miles on this thing and it's pretty great."

If you own a Geo Tracker and someone shows you a Chevy Tahoe, and the Tahoe is in your budget...

Nothing in any of my posts has meant to belittle any of the improvements in Stadium. If anything, its meant to praise OG Helix and slag off the Axe Fx II.

I almost typed out a car analogy but deleted it. But my premise was...I have a 2016 Honda CR-V that runs great and is fully paid off. I'm sure the 2026 cars are nicer and have cooler features and all that. But what I have is working and I just don't want to spend money to replace it.

 

[EOengineer]

I almost typed out a car analogy but deleted it. But my premise was...I have a 2016 Honda CR-V that runs great and is fully paid off. I'm sure the 2026 cars are nicer and have cooler features and all that. But what I have is working and I just don't want to spend money to replace it.

As a fellow Honda owner, you’re going to be trying to find ways to kill that vehicle before it dies of natural causes. You may never get a new modeler again.

 

[OneEng]

Fractal released the AM4 using a component modeling system that they have been continually refining since 2018 and featuring a library of amps and effects that they have a 7 year head start on L6. L6 released a continuation of the Helix ecosystem 3 months ago with their first attempt at a component based modeling solution and a much smaller initial selection of models. L6 communicated this all clearly and IMO set the proper expectation regarding what Stadium would have out of the box and what post sale support and development will look like.

I don't really get the fixation on Stadium not having all new everything when it released when L6 stated emphatically and repeatedly that wouldn't be the case. Did you not believe them?

Certainly no fixation. I just think that most people will gauge the new Stadium and new AM4 based on what they are able to do right now, and I consider that fair.

It may well be that in the near future, this will change; however, if I had to guess, it might be a bit before Stadium reaches parity with Fractal across the board.

If I were going to shell out $2K ish on a new guitar processor, how would stadium beat out FM9 rather on Axe III FX? I do agree there are certainly areas where it does, the question is (especially at this price point) does the market at the high end care more about what Stadium is good at, or what Fractal is good at?

Anyway, that is my only point. I also get your point. Stadium has a ton of room to grow. Fractal is likely at its high point (which is why they released the AM4.... they are now looking to capitalize on the lower end of the market with the same base architecture). Your speculation is that Stadium will eventually meet or exceed Fractal where it currently lags, and will still be a better platform overall due to the many things Stadium does that Fractal either does poorly, or not at all. I agree this may become the case some day, but not today.

I think AM4 pretty much beats the crap out of everything below the very top of the food chain, and maybe even a couple of those in many respects. I was never a fan of the FM3 (too small to gig with), but AM4 seems to be quite the little device. In fact, I can't imagine AM4 will not pull quite a few potential FM3 sales as well. It will also pull sales from the top end as it really is just that capable (for most users).

 

[dbfretz]

Fractal released the AM4 using a component modeling system that they have been continually refining since 2018 and featuring a library of amps and effects that they have a 7 year head start on L6. L6 released a continuation of the Helix ecosystem 3 months ago with their first attempt at a component based modeling solution and a much smaller initial selection of models. L6 communicated this all clearly and IMO set the proper expectation regarding what Stadium would have out of the box and what post sale support and development will look like.

I don't really get the fixation on Stadium not having all new everything when it released when L6 stated emphatically and repeatedly that wouldn't be the case. Did you not believe them?

Haven’t Line6 being doing component based modelling already? Genuine question.

 

[mbenigni]

I get that it’s not your hill to die on, but if you’re echoing another’s point, you’re adopting that position regardless of how you may attempt to wiggle out of it.

Fair enough. It's difficult to defend my logic without sounding like I'm defending a point I don't even agree with.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Line 6 releasing the Agoura content that's ready alongside legacy HX - as they clearly indicated they were doing. All I'm saying is that if the AM4 is delivering more for you right now, that's also fair game. It's like I said to dbfretz yesterday - there's no "next gen" vs. "current gen" when all the products are on the same (proverbial) shelf. There's just X competing with Y.

I can't tell whether I'm making sense, being pedantic, or "attempting to wiggle out of it" at this point. Doesn't really matter, I suppose.

 

[OneEng]

I almost typed out a car analogy but deleted it. But my premise was...I have a 2016 Honda CR-V that runs great and is fully paid off. I'm sure the 2026 cars are nicer and have cooler features and all that. But what I have is working and I just don't want to spend money to replace it.

LOL 2022 Honda CRV. Really want a new Mach e (wont have a car payment in a couple of months), but as you say, it might be another DECADE before the honda NEEDS to be replaced.

Back to our economic message from earlier. I wonder how many (like me) are saying I will just hold on to my money incase the economy (and my job) goes tits up and I have to weather a dry spell.

If my MK1 Kemper were to die, I might well decide that an AM4 is all I need to gig with even though I can technically "afford" a Stadium.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Fair enough. It's difficult to defend my logic without sounding like I'm defending a point I don't even agree with.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Line 6 releasing the Agoura content that's ready alongside legacy HX - as they clearly indicated they were doing. All I'm saying is that if the AM4 is delivering more for you right now, that's also fair game. It's like I said to dbfretz yesterday - there's no "next gen" vs. "current gen" when all the products are on the same (proverbial) shelf. There's just X competing with Y.

I can't tell whether I'm making sense, being pedantic, or "attempting to wiggle out of it" at this point. Doesn't really matter, I suppose.

 

[ian_dissonance]

View attachment 59489

Keeping...say, all of the chorus algorithms together and not labeling some of them as mildly challenged...is controversial?

Sounds good, is good. I guess I’m buying gear to play guitar through, so I don’t care if the old algorithms and the new are in the same list, I’m gonna cycle through as many as I need to find the sound I want regardless of the age of algorithm behind it. People are still rocking 40 year old Boss pedals and I can’t imagine they’d be mad that they’re in the same case at GC alongside newly released pedals.

 

[mbenigni]

LOL 2022 Honda CRV. Really want a new Mach e (wont have a car payment in a couple of months), but as you say, it might be another DECADE before the honda NEEDS to be replaced.

Back to our economic message from earlier. I wonder how many (like me) are saying I will just hold on to my money incase the economy (and my job) goes tits up and I have to weather a dry spell.

If my MK1 Kemper were to die, I might well decide that an AM4 is all I need to gig with even though I can technically "afford" a Stadium.

My wife's still driving her 2004 CR-V. And I'd probably still be driving our 1999 Civic if a deer hadn't jumped on it. Still, my Civic Si is already 12 years old.

I'm a little bit more fickle when it comes to modelers.

 

[EOengineer]

Certainly no fixation. I just think that most people will gauge the new Stadium and new AM4 based on what they are able to do right now, and I consider that fair.

It may well be that in the near future, this will change; however, if I had to guess, it might be a bit before Stadium reaches parity with Fractal across the board.

If I were going to shell out $2K ish on a new guitar processor, how would stadium beat out FM9 rather on Axe III FX? I do agree there are certainly areas where it does, the question is (especially at this price point) does the market at the high end care more about what Stadium is good at, or what Fractal is good at?

Anyway, that is my only point. I also get your point. Stadium has a ton of room to grow. Fractal is likely at its high point (which is why they released the AM4.... they are now looking to capitalize on the lower end of the market with the same base architecture). Your speculation is that Stadium will eventually meet or exceed Fractal where it currently lags, and will still be a better platform overall due to the many things Stadium does that Fractal either does poorly, or not at all. I agree this may become the case some day, but not today.

I think AM4 pretty much beats the crap out of everything below the very top of the food chain, and maybe even a couple of those in many respects. I was never a fan of the FM3 (too small to gig with), but AM4 seems to be quite the little device. In fact, I can't imagine AM4 will not pull quite a few potential FM3 sales as well. It will also pull sales from the top end as it really is just that capable (for most users).

The AM4 really is an amazing device. IMO it is absolutely the best value in a digital device in possibly a decade for me just in terms of pure fun and tones per dollar and pound.

Haven’t Line6 being doing component based modelling already? Genuine question.

Helix used a kind of hybrid approach that used blocks of circuit functionality but as far as I’m aware wasn’t fully component based as we’d expect from Fractal and the latest gen stuff. It had ok results obviously but they’ve definitely taken a new path (for them) with Agoura.

Fair enough. It's difficult to defend my logic without sounding like I'm defending a point I don't even agree with.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Line 6 releasing the Agoura content that's ready alongside legacy HX - as they clearly indicated they were doing. All I'm saying is that if the AM4 is delivering more for you right now, that's also fair game. It's like I said to dbfretz yesterday - there's no "next gen" vs. "current gen" when all the products are on the same (proverbial) shelf. There's just X competing with Y.

I can't tell whether I'm making sense, being pedantic, or "attempting to wiggle out of it" at this point. Doesn't really matter, I suppose.

So I’m going to approach this from a different angle because I think we agree more than we disagree but just got hung up on a couple things.

I totally get expecting a new $2k flagship device to have all new everything. Part of the fun of adopting POD, PODxt, PODhd, Helix, AxeFx, etc is diving in to experience the increased realism of all the amps and effects. I love that experience. I would have absolutely preferred Stadium came with new everything. That’s an area we can probably agree.

I think where some of us disagree is whether it’s realistic for that paradigm to hold as these incremental improvements become less and less noticeable. I think L6 is leaning into a new approach that we will see others follow eventually where new hardware releases are setting up runways for future development, and we’re less likely to see huge revamps in the entire digital platform.

Only time will tell how this all unfolds though. I bought the AM4 for what it does at launch whereas I bought Stadium to get in early and sort of ride the ride as it grows into its eventual maturity.

 

[EOengineer]

I’ve heard these guys still tour and occasionally do shows for the parents only where everyone gets totally shitfaced.

My wife's still driving her 2004 CR-V. And I'd probably still be driving our 1999 Civic if a deer hadn't jumped on it. Still, my Civic Si is already 12 years old.

I'm a little bit more fickle when it comes to modelers.

The Civic Si is such a fun car to drive. I had a 1992 Prelude Si way back in the day that was also incredibly fun to drive.