Sascha Franck
Goatlord
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And fwiw, if all of these kick in at around 5ms latency (the GP-5 is around that, haven't measured my GP-50 yet), one would possibly try to stay away from using an internal FX loop anyway.
Valeton GP-50, GP-150 and GP-180
- Thread starter laxu
- Start date
All that matters in my opinion is the quality of the white box amp modeling. The major companies today investing in this tech are Fractal, Fender Tone Master Pro, Line 6 and the chinese Hotone, Valeton, Mooer, Nux.
I heard a comparison between GP50 and GP200: some amps are equal, others sound best on the GP200. GP50 is more of a compact NAM unit with the bonus of the same WHITE BOX Modeling amps from the GP200 but to keep cost down they must have used not a high fidelity ad converter
What makes GP200 good is the XLR out, fx loop, etc for 200 dollars (at least this is the price where i live). Only 5 nam slots for guitar pedal and 5 for amps. But it's not a surprise, in my opinion almost all hi gain amps sounds better on the Valeton compared to all Mooer models, regardless of GS1000 or GE250 Pro.
Cons of GP200: still above 3ms latency and no EVH Stealth or Bogner Uberschall or Revv. I must say their Mark III and Mark IV sounds quite decent though, better than Helix for sure, which is something you will only find there, no other brand dared to make a model of these Mesa amps with decent quality, something that with a good IR can sound good.
As for GP180 dont expect much, I believe they won't rewrite the code for the white box amp modeling amps, so it's going to be the same, just may have better quality due to the new audio chip which will process at 48khz instead of 44.1khz. But GP180 lacks XLR and fx loop so GP200 owners are not going to buy GP180 and GP150 in my opinion. Valeton is trying to build another userbase which may or not may work. The ideal path for Valeton was to release a GP250 with more DSP and more NAM slots plus 48khz while keeping XLR out, Fx loop and midi. Also on a side note bonus for Valeton for providing P10 TRS balanced out. You can get balanced stereo out from the P10 and XLR, to me that is the ideal for multi effect units.
If the Valeton/Hotone company is smart they will add 5 or 6 more amps in 2026, it's gonna boost sales because there are plenty of Gp200 owners and it's not only poor people who enjoy it, it's the best for metal of all digital modeling units other than Fractal. In the age of Youtube, adding amps and updates is a huge thing, they get attention from all types of youtubers, from the guys whose audience are mostly tube amps to channels dedicated to poor people who can only afford 350 max price range.
Headrush Prime: is pretty good but switching presets is not ideal for live, it has huge gap. The quality of the white box modeling is average except on a few models and Inmusic which now owns it indicated they will stop supporting the Headrush already, no more new amps or features, no more features. The Revalver which has lot of potential is likely to not receive major updates for their cabs and amp models. Such a shame, if Revalver received decent funding they would seriously compete with Fractal.
Headrush main advantage over all competition it's their clone tech; it can clone VST really well and integrate with IR or not, it can also clone NAM, has dual amp and effects are above average. You can run two clone amps one left one right with two different IR, has way more DSP than Helix for instance. On top of that you can clone a TS9 and use with your two cloned amps. The major drawback is that cloning real hardware is harder, it takes more tries to get it right. Cloning VST is smoother and results are better, you can tweak, for instance adding a NAM Neve pre amp into a already good Marshall capture so you dont have to run two nam captures or whatever. You can mix VST plugin with NAM and make a good tweaked amp. Push 5150 from Bogren digital with a good EQ + a nam capture of a good pre amp + nam BBE exciter or any other IR from a studio rack, some people like the "warmth" of compressors which people have created IRs for it. The file result is usually good.
I forgot Boss, they but unfortunately even their amazing GT1000 and Gx-100 has only 2 good amps for metal. The main selling point of Boss GX and GT1000 is the effects.
The metal community and the old guys who still want Van Halen and Guns n Roses tones are the main audience of Valeton. If Valeton is smart they could add a Marshall Jubilee, EVH stealth and other hi gain amps, it would boost their community even more now with the GP180 and G150 possibly costing 150 dollars or 130 if you buy from aliexpress.
Nux had so much potential with their new MG50 but they told me they don't plan to add much more amps, so it's the same old 23 amps of the past 5 years. Nux has good hardware, best AD converters for the price and best latency, but few amps compared to the competition. If I'm not mistaken only 1 bass amp, Valeton has 5 bass amps and they even have dedicated distortion and effects for bass. Nux is not going to update their amp models. The structure won't be changed, they will let "better HD hardware" improve it, it's a design flaw. They should rewrite the code. But they wont
In the next 3 years if Fender don't release a product in the 450~550 dollars range, the competition in the white box modeling world is going to be Valeton, Hotone and Fractal. With Boss, Zoom and Nux losing market share, not to mention Helix which is only popular in United States and they dont plan to improve their 11 year old amp models, so basically strictly speaking about the quality of amp models they cant compete with Fender, Fractal and I must say it cant compete with Valeton at this point as well.
Neural DSP abandomned their plans for releasing more and more white box modeling amps (which they promised on a blog post in 2024) to focus on captures and more effects. Bonus points for them for making fuzz pedals sound great and improving the sound quality of captures, but dont expect hi quality white modeling Petrucci amps in the CoreOS (the Quad Cortex system). Neural DSP spent a lot of money building a machine that captures an entire amp and translate it code, basically having a direct copy of an amp except it's not snapshot but a modeling technology. But they seem to have dropped this. It's a shame really, Neural DSP came from the factory since day 1 with good white box modeling amp models, but all money spent on making those high quality amp models are abandoned. Instead of releasing 2 or 3 Mesa Boogie Mark models with the white box approach, they opted for captures. There are over 100 captures of Mark IIC+ but honestly it's not what you can call a high quality capture. While it sounds good it has its limits. The technology for their plugins and integration the machine which they developed that can make 1:1 copy of analog amps and port into the CoreOS was their "game changer" but they simply decided to focus on other things.
In short: I believe adding amps and effects can put Valeton on advantage over the rest. Fender Master Pro might also keep adding stuff and despite the lack of marketing they may gain more usersabe. Helix reached its limit, they have nothing more to offer, unless somehow they change directions and claim to rewrite all their amps. Next few years releasing a cheaper Helix Stadium like Helix Stadium Mini,. Like a HX Stomp 2.0, etc is what might keep them alive.
I heard a comparison between GP50 and GP200: some amps are equal, others sound best on the GP200. GP50 is more of a compact NAM unit with the bonus of the same WHITE BOX Modeling amps from the GP200 but to keep cost down they must have used not a high fidelity ad converter
What makes GP200 good is the XLR out, fx loop, etc for 200 dollars (at least this is the price where i live). Only 5 nam slots for guitar pedal and 5 for amps. But it's not a surprise, in my opinion almost all hi gain amps sounds better on the Valeton compared to all Mooer models, regardless of GS1000 or GE250 Pro.
Cons of GP200: still above 3ms latency and no EVH Stealth or Bogner Uberschall or Revv. I must say their Mark III and Mark IV sounds quite decent though, better than Helix for sure, which is something you will only find there, no other brand dared to make a model of these Mesa amps with decent quality, something that with a good IR can sound good.
As for GP180 dont expect much, I believe they won't rewrite the code for the white box amp modeling amps, so it's going to be the same, just may have better quality due to the new audio chip which will process at 48khz instead of 44.1khz. But GP180 lacks XLR and fx loop so GP200 owners are not going to buy GP180 and GP150 in my opinion. Valeton is trying to build another userbase which may or not may work. The ideal path for Valeton was to release a GP250 with more DSP and more NAM slots plus 48khz while keeping XLR out, Fx loop and midi. Also on a side note bonus for Valeton for providing P10 TRS balanced out. You can get balanced stereo out from the P10 and XLR, to me that is the ideal for multi effect units.
If the Valeton/Hotone company is smart they will add 5 or 6 more amps in 2026, it's gonna boost sales because there are plenty of Gp200 owners and it's not only poor people who enjoy it, it's the best for metal of all digital modeling units other than Fractal. In the age of Youtube, adding amps and updates is a huge thing, they get attention from all types of youtubers, from the guys whose audience are mostly tube amps to channels dedicated to poor people who can only afford 350 max price range.
Headrush Prime: is pretty good but switching presets is not ideal for live, it has huge gap. The quality of the white box modeling is average except on a few models and Inmusic which now owns it indicated they will stop supporting the Headrush already, no more new amps or features, no more features. The Revalver which has lot of potential is likely to not receive major updates for their cabs and amp models. Such a shame, if Revalver received decent funding they would seriously compete with Fractal.
Headrush main advantage over all competition it's their clone tech; it can clone VST really well and integrate with IR or not, it can also clone NAM, has dual amp and effects are above average. You can run two clone amps one left one right with two different IR, has way more DSP than Helix for instance. On top of that you can clone a TS9 and use with your two cloned amps. The major drawback is that cloning real hardware is harder, it takes more tries to get it right. Cloning VST is smoother and results are better, you can tweak, for instance adding a NAM Neve pre amp into a already good Marshall capture so you dont have to run two nam captures or whatever. You can mix VST plugin with NAM and make a good tweaked amp. Push 5150 from Bogren digital with a good EQ + a nam capture of a good pre amp + nam BBE exciter or any other IR from a studio rack, some people like the "warmth" of compressors which people have created IRs for it. The file result is usually good.
I forgot Boss, they but unfortunately even their amazing GT1000 and Gx-100 has only 2 good amps for metal. The main selling point of Boss GX and GT1000 is the effects.
The metal community and the old guys who still want Van Halen and Guns n Roses tones are the main audience of Valeton. If Valeton is smart they could add a Marshall Jubilee, EVH stealth and other hi gain amps, it would boost their community even more now with the GP180 and G150 possibly costing 150 dollars or 130 if you buy from aliexpress.
Nux had so much potential with their new MG50 but they told me they don't plan to add much more amps, so it's the same old 23 amps of the past 5 years. Nux has good hardware, best AD converters for the price and best latency, but few amps compared to the competition. If I'm not mistaken only 1 bass amp, Valeton has 5 bass amps and they even have dedicated distortion and effects for bass. Nux is not going to update their amp models. The structure won't be changed, they will let "better HD hardware" improve it, it's a design flaw. They should rewrite the code. But they wont
In the next 3 years if Fender don't release a product in the 450~550 dollars range, the competition in the white box modeling world is going to be Valeton, Hotone and Fractal. With Boss, Zoom and Nux losing market share, not to mention Helix which is only popular in United States and they dont plan to improve their 11 year old amp models, so basically strictly speaking about the quality of amp models they cant compete with Fender, Fractal and I must say it cant compete with Valeton at this point as well.
Neural DSP abandomned their plans for releasing more and more white box modeling amps (which they promised on a blog post in 2024) to focus on captures and more effects. Bonus points for them for making fuzz pedals sound great and improving the sound quality of captures, but dont expect hi quality white modeling Petrucci amps in the CoreOS (the Quad Cortex system). Neural DSP spent a lot of money building a machine that captures an entire amp and translate it code, basically having a direct copy of an amp except it's not snapshot but a modeling technology. But they seem to have dropped this. It's a shame really, Neural DSP came from the factory since day 1 with good white box modeling amp models, but all money spent on making those high quality amp models are abandoned. Instead of releasing 2 or 3 Mesa Boogie Mark models with the white box approach, they opted for captures. There are over 100 captures of Mark IIC+ but honestly it's not what you can call a high quality capture. While it sounds good it has its limits. The technology for their plugins and integration the machine which they developed that can make 1:1 copy of analog amps and port into the CoreOS was their "game changer" but they simply decided to focus on other things.
In short: I believe adding amps and effects can put Valeton on advantage over the rest. Fender Master Pro might also keep adding stuff and despite the lack of marketing they may gain more usersabe. Helix reached its limit, they have nothing more to offer, unless somehow they change directions and claim to rewrite all their amps. Next few years releasing a cheaper Helix Stadium like Helix Stadium Mini,. Like a HX Stomp 2.0, etc is what might keep them alive.
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Sascha Franck
Goatlord
- Messages
- 11,789
Fwiw, I just learned that the NUX MG 30 can load both a converted NAM capture *and* a user IR. At just 2ms RTL. Quite amazing - I really wish the GP units would be like that.
The nam conversion of Nux is inferior, things might change with the new NAM A2, it might encourage Nux to improve it but as of today Mooer and Nux conversion is to be desired. But yeah Nux has the best latency of all multi effect units, regardless of native amps por NAM
Sascha Franck
Goatlord
- Messages
- 11,789
According to Leo Gibson (and yes, I know how to rate his nulltest methods...) it's better than the GPs.
Chocol8
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,526
FYI, when you post complete nonsense like this, everything else you say loses credibility.
You are absolutely incorrect because Helix Stadium uses the same engine as Helix, they dont update their amp models, this is a fact, they never improved the power amp simulation this is a fact and they dont plan to improve it. It's not like Fractal where they eventually go back to a model released 3 or 4 years ago and tweak it, or rewrite much of the code if necessary
I A/B their Panama and Mark IV (5150 and MEsa Mark IV) with Headrush, Mooer, Fractal III and Valeton. Helix simply sounds worse than them. Not to mention comparng to plugins like Bogren 5150 or ML Sound Roots. Helix is inferior to all of them in the two amps I mentioned. Also Soldano. And I can go on and on
bucephalus
Roadie
- Messages
- 998
Put the shovel down.
Chocol8
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,526
It's one thing to say something stupid because you don't know, but when you get called out and you come back with more absurdly incorrect bull shit, your credibility is completely shot. Don't bother replyIng, you're not worth my time...or anyone's.
Sascha Franck
Goatlord
- Messages
- 11,789
Correct, you're here to post non-proveable nonsense.
Which amp models sound broken to you? Genuine question, I haven't touched my Stomp in a while and would love to have a listen of those amps later today.
Never claimed they were broken, said they were never improved
The supposed "2203" sounds horrible. No one in his right mind would call it a good representation of the Marshall 2203. Soldano is awful as well. , They have 6 or 7 originals that sound very bad, I remember they ported these amps to the Spider line and everyone hated. It sound bad on the Spider line and it sounds very below average on the helix even with extreme tweaking and changing cabs.
Bogner Esctazy...
Their modeling is simply inferior to the competition, which is unfortunate since in theory it's a large company. Fender Tone Master pro is 10x ahead of them when it comes to modeling Marshall, Soldano and Bogner amps. Not to mention Axe FX. And now with Helix Stadium instead of rewriting the code they simply ported the same 10 year old models and the "Agoura" amps are not much different in comparison to the legacy Helix, you can A/B them and you won't see any big improvement.
The only thing that the Helix Stadium does better is that it cuts that harsh high end by default. So basically they fixed the EQ Globally. That is it.
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ian_dissonance
Shredder
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- 2,240
Bro, you are talking absolute nonsense, lol.
Chocol8
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,526
If we all stop feeding the troll he will leave.
In a near future Fractal aims to have capture quality but in a modeling platform aka the amp will behave exactly like the real amp, when you turn bass to 8 o clock on a Marshall jcm800 or jcm900 it should behave exactly like that
NeuralDSP build a machine to do this and the results are Soldano plugin and some 5 or 6 amp models they included in their first firmware for the Quad Cortex. The machine would physically twist all knobs by itself and write the results in a semi finished code form. The machine has 6 or 8 claws for all the knobs, Bass, middle, treble, gain, presence, etc. The claw let all knobs at noon and rotates presence from 0 to the max, the results are printed in code, then this machine will twist presence with gain and, then presence with bass, etc,etc, until all possible combinations are exhausted
Gain at 7, Bass 3, presence 7, middle 5 treble 8 = machine would have code for this,
Gain 0, bass 3, presence 7, middle 5, treble 8 = machine would have written code for this combination
etc etc etc
At the same time if I'm not mistaken this machine would capture the behavior of output and bias.
But for some reason neural DSP is not using this machine anymore. Either because it's too time consuming or because they are waiting for the Quad Cortex 2.0 5 or 6 years from now.
Axe FX has similar approach but it's more handmade, that is why Axe FX is always in "beta" constant updating their findings. But if they keep doing this sooner or later they will get there.
I've seen so many musicians use Kemper live, even recording live albums. Paradise Lost, Steve Vai, George Lynch, Dino Cazares, Testament... I believe, and I might be wrong on this, it's because these guys get in their home and capture the amps on their own or with the help of a tech. No need for studio or expensive equipment. Just plug the cables into the Kemper and there you go.
Same applies for Neural DSP, just plug the cables to your JVM head and there you go, Megadeth is using Neural DSP live. I've seen George Lynch use Kemper with the Kemper own power amp, so for 2000 dollars not a bad deal, you get your own amp sound + power amp.
I'm a big fan of Fractal. Their approach takes more time but eventually they will get better results than the competition. But on the other hand I'm not fanatical about 100% accuracy, I dont mind a bit of digital feel of a hi gain amp model like Boss X-optima or X-Hi Gain, it sounds good so it sounds good. I never cared for older Zoom products having that digital feel to it. Marilyn Manson recorded an album using a 90s Zoom product.
In my mind the ideal world is to improve real tube amps by using clever code tricks, but most people buy modeling units for a 1:1 representation of the real tube amp
I'd much rather have an improved or tweaked tube amp and this can be done when the schematic is ready at code level, you can switch the value of capacitor, resistors etc compared to the factory value.
On a optimistic view, the way Axe FX is doing their work is meant so that in the future you can have their Plexi amp model and by knowing a bit of code and electronics you can transform into a Jose mod or a Jose tweaked mode, you can create your own mod. You can make your own JCM800 mod. If Fractal is going to allow users to mess with their default amps is another story.
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Shask
Roadie
- Messages
- 299
I have had Fractal stuff for 20 years, so I am very used to it. It sounds good, but there is always something off in the feel. The dynamics are not there yet. It doesn't matter if you can tweak all the knobs and how the EQ works if the underlying dynamics are weird.
The newer ML systems like ToneX and NAM are the first time I thought the pick attack and chug bloom actually had the correct dynamics in a way the original amp does. The Fractals have an overly smooth recorded sound in comparison.
To me it's quite the opposite. Although it's been years since I dont play a fractal model I still miss the instant feel compared to tonex. I used tonex every day for the past 12 months and I'm tired of it. The EQ is never going to improve, the models are 95% garbage and for hi gain it's virtually impossible to find something with less noise than the original hardware. Tonex introduces more noise than needed. If it wasnt for mirrorcaptures or vic audio I'd probably have quit Tonex way before. I'm free of Tonex now, I feel like a new man
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