The eternal debate for/against auto tune.

[Bruce]

And everybody knows the best DT didn't happen until Portnoy left.

well, portnoy took all the hooks with him, thats for damn sure.

 

[Gearzilla]

The best DT goes by LTE.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Should Just Listen To Queensryche. Or Rush TM

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Should Just Listen To Queensryche. Or Rush TM

And figure anybody making non-Queensryche/Rush is watering things down...

Making artistic expression more accessible in anyway is good because...it is good for people to have an opportunity to express themselves artistically. Who cares about the consumption side.

The consumption side -- sure, there's loads of music with minimal artistic merit being produced. But...there's also a lot of music with high levels of artistic merit being made. The consumer has always had to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[TSJMajesty]

And figure anybody making non-Queensryche/Rush is watering things down...

Making artistic expression more accessible in anyway is good because...it is good for people to have an opportunity to express themselves artistically. Who cares about the consumption side.

Just because you don't doesn't mean nobody does.

The consumption side -- sure, there's loads of music with minimal artistic merit being produced. But...there's also a lot of music with high levels of artistic merit being made.

Just not nearly as much as there used to be. Thus, watered down.

GFY! You're not the only one who can have an opinion!!

Why don't you quote my posts instead of taking all these back-handed cheap shots at my comments!

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Just because you don't doesn't mean nobody does.

Just not nearly as much as there used to be. Thus, watered down.

GFY! You're not the only one who can have an opinion!!

Why don't you quote my posts instead of taking all these back-handed cheap shots at my comments!

First, apologies that it seemed like I was being passive aggressive. It was Saturday afternoon, I was bouncing around running errands, posting here and there from my phone.

Second, the point about "who cares about from a consumption perspective" is this: who WOULDN'T get excited about more people having a chance to express themselves artistically through sound? Being able to make music has been one of my life's greatest joys and I wish that opportunity to be available to as many people as possible. In other words, ignoring what impact having a wider range of musical output might have on the consumer, how can you NOT get excited about the fact that a kid today doesn't need to go through the hoops I did with using two tape recorders, recording a rhythm guitar part on one, playing it back and recording the tape play back and the sound of my amp on the second tape recorder -- all using the crappy built in mic on the cheap cassette recorder -- to have a first experience hearing themselves "playing over a backing track". The first time I did that as a 15 year old and made something that sounded like MUSIC on playback was one of the most amazing feelings I've had in my life. Today, kids can get that same joy with a laptop or iPad they already have because their school made them buy one. With 10000% better results. That.Is.Awesome for those kids. Sure a whole lot of kids won't care; plenty will try and not be moved by it. But at least one more kid than would have otherwise will do it and have the same feeling I think most of us had. That's awesome.

As to "not nearly as much as there used to be" I WILDLY disagree. There is more good music being made -- from home-brew YouTube stuff by somebody nobody has ever heard of, to home-brew Youtube stuff by somebody a lot of people have heard of but most people have never heard of, to soundtracks to TV music to the radio -- I hear loads of good music all the time, wider ranging in genre and style than I ever did when I was a kid. There is of course more crap, too, because there is more of everything. But, in my opinion, there is also more, wider ranging, good stuff, too. And its a lot easier for me to search/sift for the good stuff now that I'm not stuck flipping the channel clicker back and forth between random ass variety show on the Nashville network, Austin City Limits on PBS, and Headbangers Ball on MTV on a Saturday night hoping to find something good. I just go to YouTube or Spotify and start searching and skipping until I'm deep in a groove, and it never takes that long and is almost always filled with unexpected surprises I never would have been able to run into circa 1993. I used to go to the public library and check out CDs in search of new music. Ugh. It was so much work trying to get into a new style of music I didn't know much about back then. Now, if I wanna explore the early roots of Bluegrass, its a Spotify playlist away, and will likely immediately send me into the modern offshoots of it on another playlist with Joe K. Walsh, Grant Gordy, and The Punchbrothers -- and I can likely find a reasonably well produced interview on YouTube with someone discussing the path between those two playlists without too much work.

I can absolutely see someone that has a particularly jam -- be it Romantic style classical music, BeBop jazz, or guitar-centric rock music -- feeling like today is not as good as things used to be. Sure there are still folks composing in the Romantic style, but its nothing like the 1800s when you had Beethoven, Brahms, Dvorak, Schubert, Mendelssohn, and on, and on, and on. Sure there are folks playing deeply in the bebop tradition today but it's still nothing like the 40s and 50s, especially for those that lived it in the clubs of NYC. And yes, despite plenty of guitar-centric rock music being made today it's not the same as the late 60s-early 90s where the biggest radio stations, the background music to everything, was almost always guitar-centric and at least heavily rock influenced.

But in terms of anything -- democratize the tools so that anyone can do it and you will necessarily get a lot more stuff made from those tools. That means more crap, oftentimes crappier crap. But it also means more good stuff, too. Because it's not like the people that would have been motivated to make music otherwise are going to NOT do it just because the tools are more readily available. So you've got the same base-level of high achievers you would have had otherwise. And at least some of those new folks...are gonna make something good.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

 

[Bruce]

If the consumption perspective is asses in seats at gigs, yes. I want THAT. Exactly that.

I just used revoice pro to line up 7 vocal tracks. No one is that dead balls on and man it sounds so good lined up like this.

 

[Bruce]

. Sure there are folks playing deeply in the bebop tradition today but it's still nothing like the 40s and 50s, especially for those that lived it in the clubs of NYC

And they did it falling down high on heroin. Like, HOW the FUCK????? Some of that charile parker stuff is at 250BPM . How do you do that on heroin?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Excellent write up, @Boudoir Guitar.
Also an excellent video by Mr. Neely.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Some of that charile parker stuff is at 250BPM . How do you do that on heroin?

Might've appeared as a ballad to them.

 

[DrewJD82]

If the consumption perspective is asses in seats at gigs, yes. I want THAT. Exactly that.

I just used revoice pro to line up 7 vocal tracks. No one is that dead balls on and man it sounds so good lined up like this.

Holy sh*t, for $600 I’ll just sing it until I get it right.

I know you were working on live stuff, I just can’t believe that’s f*cking $600! I was going to get Vocalign a while back, but after thinking about it in the context of my own music I decided against it. I prefer the AIC-method of layering a bunch of vocals/harmonies and specifically not having them perfectly lined up. So everything sounds like Dirt.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Holy sh*t, for $600 I’ll just sing it until I get it right.

I know you were working on live stuff, I just can’t believe that’s f*cking $600! I was going to get Vocalign a while back, but after thinking about it in the context of my own music I decided against it. I prefer the AIC-method of layering a bunch of vocals/harmonies and specifically not having them perfectly lined up. So everything sounds like Dirt.

From looking at it briefly, it's a lot like the higher prices versions of melodyne...super useful for pro studios where speeding up workflow can save money. If you can edit one of 5-25 vocal tracks and have the rest follow the edits of that first one, that could easily halve the time of a mix. If you neither work regularly with 5+ vocal layers, or are fine with a bit of tedium...just stick with the budget stuff.

 

[Bruce]

From looking at it briefly, it's a lot like the higher prices versions of melodyne...super useful for pro studios where speeding up workflow can save money. If you can edit one of 5-25 vocal tracks and have the rest follow the edits of that first one, that could easily halve the time of a mix. If you neither work regularly with 5+ vocal layers, or are fine with a bit of tedium...just stick with the budget stuff.

The mix is fun and easy. The fucking editing is hell on earth, especially when you’re trying to hide warts. Yes there’s a lot of duplication between melodyne and vocalign but nothing lines up a stack of vocals better. That’s all I use it for. If I didn’t spend the money on it I think I’d never leave my desk.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Pitch tuning/time stretching to replace guitar solos... (also, if there is a single YouTube series that best represents the benefit of making tools readily available and easy to use...Andrew Huang's "4 producers" series is it):

 

[Jarick]

Well I'm kind of split on it, and it depends on the context.

On the one hand, it's really horrible when abused. If I never hear another mumble rap or pop song where the "singer" hits exactly 12 notes, that would be fantastic. It's also annoying when terrible singers get propped up because engineers were able to edit their takes into something that sounds like a great vocal track.

But on the other hand, when used sparingly it can be a great tool. Nudging a note or two into place to save a great take, or allowing a rank amateur like me to get a passable vocal on a home recording, that's really useful. I guess I could see it as an interesting effect too but that's been done about 50,000 times.

Either way I have a lot more respect for really talented singers who can nail parts and might leave in a couple off notes. Or who keep working on takes until they nail it.

There's a really good breakdown of a Billie Eilish track I watched a few weeks ago, and I don't think there was any auto tune used at all. First off it's insane because she's like 13 years old and made the entire in her brother's bedroom with consumer gear. But they basically left in all of her takes, and she just kept recording until she nailed it. That's just a combination of unbelievable talent (both her vocals and her brother's production) and hard work.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Well I'm kind of split on it, and it depends on the context.

On the one hand, it's really horrible when abused. If I never hear another mumble rap or pop song where the "singer" hits exactly 12 notes, that would be fantastic. It's also annoying when terrible singers get propped up because engineers were able to edit their takes into something that sounds like a great vocal track.

But on the other hand, when used sparingly it can be a great tool. Nudging a note or two into place to save a great take, or allowing a rank amateur like me to get a passable vocal on a home recording, that's really useful. I guess I could see it as an interesting effect too but that's been done about 50,000 times.

Either way I have a lot more respect for really talented singers who can nail parts and might leave in a couple off notes. Or who keep working on takes until they nail it.

There's a really good breakdown of a Billie Eilish track I watched a few weeks ago, and I don't think there was any auto tune used at all. First off it's insane because she's like 13 years old and made the entire in her brother's bedroom with consumer gear. But they basically left in all of her takes, and she just kept recording until she nailed it. That's just a combination of unbelievable talent (both her vocals and her brother's production) and hard work.

For me, live performance and recording are two very separate things. Different folks go to shows for different reasons. I don't think anybody is (or really ever was from Theatre of Pain onward) showing up to a Motley Crew show to see Vince Neil put in a great vocal performance. But loads of folks still love the show. I would hate it, because I go to a rock show to see/hear energy expressed through MUSICAL performance. But I also see mostly small, sub-1000 capacity, shows where heavy autotuning is likely to be much more obvious.

Others love the pyro, the stage antics, being surrounded by like-minded folks, and the visceral experience of loud rock drums/bass/guitar and someone vaguely singing songs they know and love.

The positive thing is it's pretty easy to know what artists are likey to put on a great stellar musical performance and which ones are just there to put on a performance. Active deception (million vanilli; comping a track word-for-word to sound like a great performance when everyone knows the singer couldn't make it through a verse, much less a set, without leaning heavily on autotune) would make me mad on some sort of personal level for whatever reason.

But a lot of this is more about musical taste than anything else. I dislike a lot of hip hop I here today mostly because it has zero energy for me, and overuse of autotune is part of what kills the energy for me.

Of course I have more respect for a singer, as a singer, who is a better singer. I can respect someone's skill and yet not be a fan of their art. And vice versa.

As far as recorded sound goes - for me, I'm pretty agnostic about how the sound was made. I can gain more respect for artist/producer as I learn more and/or be made more excited to see the artist live, but I've gotten to where learning something was basically comped word for word, or whatever, it doesn't really change my opinion of the recorded music itself.

 

[dcburn]

Maybe I’m weird, but I love imperfections on old records.

100%

 

[Bob Zaod]

Singing is all breathing as others have already stated. If you can't breathe properly you either can't sing in key consistently OR you are going to wreck your vocal cords. Allergy season is about 9 months out of the year where I am. There are times when I have a gig and no matter how I treat my issues (trust me I've tried it all) I still have trouble breathing/singing. Not to brag but on a good day I have a tremendous singing voice and can sing on pitch without any issues. The PC that I use is in a pedal and is very slightly on. It's a binky for me so I leave it on all the time. I can hear when it's working because you hear yourself inside your head and coming out of the wedge at the same time. I rarely ever hear it kick in. Maybe 2 or 3 times on my worst days during a performance. Still it's a binky and I will always use some form of PC when I have to sing. Live or recorded.

Despite some of the high horse people, (havent seen much here at TGF) I do not regret using it nor would I ever stop using it because someone thinks it's cheating.