Richard_G's Tonex Captures

[Richard_G]

I figured I should make a separate thread about this, for anyone interested. And then those not interested can ignore the whole thread.

I spent some time today making some captures of my Tone King Imperial Tri Tube Preamp pedal. I like the outcome, and thought I'd share these ;
- Rhythm channel. Edge of breakup. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.
- Rhythm channel. Edge of breakup 2. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.
- Lead channel. Crunch. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.
- Lead channel. Crunch 2. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.

I've already posted a few captures of my Synergy OG SLO module (captured in a SYN-1), but here you go:
- SYN-1 Soldano SLO RED High gain 1. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.
- SYN-1 Soldano SLO RED High gain 2. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.
- SYN-1 Soldano SLO RED High gain 3. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.

Please keep the send dBu level in mind when you calibrate your system for the use of these.

I hope you will enjoy these. I would appreciate comments and feedback.

 

[Richard_G]

And here are a few more of the Tone King Imperial Tri Tube Imperial Preamp pedal - this time captures from the "To amp return" output, that is for use with an external power amp:
- Rhythm channel. Edge of breakup. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.
- Rhythm channel. Edge of breakup 2. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.
- Lead channel. Crunch. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.
- Lead channel. Crunch 2. DI. Send dBu level: 14.8 dBu.

Please keep the send dBu level in mind when you calibrate your system for the use of these.

 

[QQQ]

Thanks for sharing. Will check definitely check these out.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I like the TK ones quite a bit (not sure about the SLOs yet, maybe I didn't find the right IR yet, but I'm not into that much gain usually anyway, so I possibly can't tell).

Here's a little clip of the R TK Imperial Pedal Ld Crunch DI capture, loaded into the TXO, guitar straight in, zero EQing, used one of the IRs I usually get along with for anything alround-ish. Is that how you'd say it's kinda supposed to sound?

 

[Richard_G]

Cool, @Sascha Franck. Considering all the factors in play, I'd say that's not far from what I get with the same capture. You are seemingly hitting the capture a bit harder than I am, so - ceteris paribus - you could check how you like the capture if you reduce the gain 6 dB or so. But this is subjective and depends on so many factors...

Btw, I used the York Audio M65 Creamback Mix 1 IR while dialing the Tone King pedal in. But it was off course not part of the chain during the capturing. I believe you still like to know that as a reference.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Cool, @Sascha Franck. Considering all the factors in play, I'd say that's not far from what I get with the same capture. You are seemingly hitting the capture a bit harder than I am, so - ceteris paribus - you could check how you like the capture if you reduce the gain 6 dB or so. But this is subjective and depends on so many factors...

I even reduced the gain of the TXO to 0dB (default is +8.5) and the pickups used aren't particularly high gain (neck is a Fender Noiseless Gen 2, bridge is standard PAF-ish territory). The previews both on ToneNET and within the plugin sound quite gainier, too - so I actually thought I might be "undergained". But I already tried with the gain reduced and all TK captures of yours are doing just fine with that as well.
And fwiw, I actually quite like the sound with the IR I used. Tried with some others as well - they were fine, too, but as so often, ear fatigue kicks in quickly when browsing IRs.

 

[Richard_G]

I don't mean that you HAVE to do anything. I like how it sounds.

I'd say you don't seem undergained compared to me. Not that far from me gain wise either, with my PAF-style 'buckers. I too like your IR choice.

Btw: I never run my Tonex One @+8.5. My default has been 2.5 or 0, when using my R8. I might reduce it further with my current setup or rather reduce the gain in the actual preset/tone model.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I don't mean that you HAVE to do anything.

I didn't understand it that way, either. All fine, these captures seem to work within a wide range of input gain settings.

Btw: I never run my Tonex One @+8.5.

I'm actually wondering why they've chosen it as the default as quite some captures really come out at least somewhat hairy when they seem to be meant to be completely clean (and I also found some gainier captures to become pretty mushy, in fact that's the first thing I noticed). It's defenitely not caused by the high output of my guitars.
And while those 8.5 are actually in line with the audio interface calibration thingy on Ghost Note Audio's site, when you lower the input of the hardware, you will actually have to lower the gain of your interface (or a gain plugin you might be using, such as I do) as well to be back at gain parity between the two. Might even be worth for Ghost Note Audio to change it, as pretty much noone seems to run their Tonex hardware at that setting (or maybe they do and find themselves underwhelmed?) - perhaps @MirrorProfiles has a say in that?

 

[Progressive_disclosure]

Planning to try those SLO caps into the power amp later!


I just tested my TO for a few minutes on Friday and the gain settings threw me off. I lowered it to 5 but sounds like I’ll be better off trying 0-2. Maybe we should compile a starting guide for Tonex and just gather all of this info in one place?

 

[Sascha Franck]

I lowered it to 5 but sounds like I’ll be better off trying 0-2.

I think 0 is about perfect. Most captures seem to work well with it, it's easy to remember and a kinda "standard" in the digital world (even if nobody knows how it scales/relates in the IK universe) and there's still enough headroom to push captures with the gain knob on the amp block.

Maybe we should compile a starting guide for Tonex and just gather all of this info in one place?

Not a bad idea. Ideally that would involve asking some of the better/bigger/professional capture creators for their opinions, because they certainly have an interest in their offerings sounding as good as possible both in the hardware and plugin versions.

"We believe that the Tonex pedals are generally performing better with a multitude of guitars and pickups when the global input gain is lowered to 0. If you feel that our captures released to this day sound sort of undergained, please use the amps gain knob to recover. For gain parity between the hardware and the plugin, you might want to do the same with the input trim on the plugin."

Obviously, for people having loads of patches on their hardware units, that might not be too great (and of course a lot easier for TXO owners as there's less patches and the built in autosave functionality).

Thing is, lowering the overall input gain by 1-3 dB possibly isn't that much of a big deal, it's basically within the range of what different guitars and pickups deliver anyway, but 8.5 is quite a plenty already, so some captures (most notably those meant to be EOB) would sound/feel very different and also come out rather low-volume-ish, which in return (due to the psychological nature of hearing perception) might even result in them to be perceived as weak.

Maybe @MirrorProfiles and @Deadpan could share their opinion on the matter, at least they're active right here already. Would possibly be great to have Amalagam on board, too, as their captures seem to be widely used and pretty popular (for good reasons, as it seems).

 

[Deadpan]

I think 0 is about perfect. Most captures seem to work well with it, it's easy to remember and a kinda "standard" in the digital world (even if nobody knows how it scales/relates in the IK universe) and there's still enough headroom to push captures with the gain knob on the amp block.



Not a bad idea. Ideally that would involve asking some of the better/bigger/professional capture creators for their opinions, because they certainly have an interest in their offerings sounding as good as possible both in the hardware and plugin versions.

"We believe that the Tonex pedals are generally performing better with a multitude of guitars and pickups when the global input gain is lowered to 0. If you feel that our captures released to this day sound sort of undergained, please use the amps gain knob to recover. For gain parity between the hardware and the plugin, you might want to do the same with the input trim on the plugin."

Obviously, for people having loads of patches on their hardware units, that might not be too great (and of course a lot easier for TXO owners as there's less patches and the built in autosave functionality).

Thing is, lowering the overall input gain by 1-3 dB possibly isn't that much of a big deal, it's basically within the range of what different guitars and pickups deliver anyway, but 8.5 is quite a plenty already, so some captures (most notably those meant to be EOB) would sound/feel very different and also come out rather low-volume-ish, which in return (due to the psychological nature of hearing perception) might even result in them to be perceived as weak.

Maybe @MirrorProfiles and @Deadpan could share their opinion on the matter, at least they're active right here already. Would possibly be great to have Amalagam on board, too, as their captures seem to be widely used and pretty popular (for good reasons, as it seems).

I think this is a necessary discussion.

IMO, there are many variables and the best we can do is hopefully make users aware of them so they can make an informed choice in how they approach it.

Different input hardware have different input specification. @MirrorProfiles has a spreadsheet postedthat lists many interfaces. He has done great work on this subject.

If using the Tonex One as the interface to the software the maximum input level doesn't change so you should be able to match the input trim in the software to the hardware an have a match. I say should because I haven't measured it.

 

[EOengineer]

I’ve tried to at least partially mitigate the leveling madness by just targeting proper translation to the Tonex hardware (pedal & one) with input trim set to neutral zero when creating my own captures. I figure if I get things translating there i at least have some consistency, at least half of the battle.

Once I get things dialed in I’ll break out a meter and see where my levels are.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Different input hardware have different input specification. @MirrorProfiles has a spreadsheet postedthat lists many interfaces. He has done great work on this subject.

Sure. But as with the L6 HX line, IMO it'd be the best idea to take the hardware delivered by IK as a role model.
Now, unfortunately, it's not as easy as with the HX series, as those simply offer only two global input settings, whereas the Tonex pedals have a whooping range from -15 to +15 in 0.5 increments.
That's why it'd possibly be the best idea to propagate 0dB as the ideal "happy medium" startup setting. And in return to also adjust the values in the database @MirrorProfiles came up with, which also found their way into the nice Amp Simulation Input Gain online thing from Ghost Note Audio.

Ok, I am quite aware that it might be too late for any of this already, as tons of folks have adjusted their patches, set their Tonex pedal global gain, calibrated their interfaces and what not already.
But then, in the end this would be something everyone would profit from.
I have just fooled around with quite a truckload of captures that I wanted to sort out, and at 0dB (or rather the respective -8.5dB that I reduced with the gain plugin inside Logic) sooo many just sound much more articulate and possibly more "correct" as well (which I obviously can't exactly tell, but then, I've been using amps for long enough to have a broad idea of what things should typically sound like).

So IMO it'd be a "better late than never" case.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Sure. But as with the L6 HX line, IMO it'd be the best idea to take the hardware delivered by IK as a role model.
Now, unfortunately, it's not as easy as with the HX series, as those simply offer only two global input settings, whereas the Tonex pedals have a whooping range from -15 to +15 in 0.5 increments.
That's why it'd possibly be the best idea to propagate 0dB as the ideal "happy medium" startup setting. And in return to also adjust the values in the database @MirrorProfiles came up with, which also found their way into the nice Amp Simulation Input Gain online thing from Ghost Note Audio.

Ok, I am quite aware that it might be too late for any of this already, as tons of folks have adjusted their patches, set their Tonex pedal global gain, calibrated their interfaces and what not already.
But then, in the end this would be something everyone would profit from.
I have just fooled around with quite a truckload of captures that I wanted to sort out, and at 0dB (or rather the respective -8.5dB that I reduced with the gain plugin inside Logic) sooo many just sound much more articulate and possibly more "correct" as well (which I obviously can't exactly tell, but then, I've been using amps for long enough to have a broad idea of what things should typically sound like).

So IMO it'd be a "better late than never" case.

I don’t have a HW pedal to test, but per others posts online:

ToneX Pedal at Unity/0dB is 8dBu=0dBFS

Also worth bearing in mind that the headroom is 8dBu regardless of how you set the levels because the input gain control comes after the A/D.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Also worth bearing in mind that the headroom is 8dBu regardless of how you set the levels because the input gain control comes after the A/D.

I'm aware of that. Yet, at the default of +8.5dB, quite some captures sound awkward. And the numbers in the Ghost Note Audio "calculator" seem to use that as a reference, because when I follow them, captures into the plugin sound pretty much identical (minus the converter and op amp differences of course). So, once the pedal's input gain is set to 0dB, I also have to lower the plugin input gain accordingly.

 

[Richard_G]

I'm not sure that Ghost Note Audio "calculator" makes all that much sense when it comes to Tonex captures. It may help you towards some consistency between using the software with a certain audio interface and using the Tonex pedals. But the captures themselves can still be all over the place gain wise - depending on the reamping setup used when the captures were made - so you still have no guarantee that you will experience the capture close to how the creator experienced it.

But knowing the max dBu input level of the Tonex pedals (which IK will not publish) and the max dBu input level of your audio interface - combined with information about the dBu level used when a capture was made - will be the ticket.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Yet, at the default of +8.5dB, quite some captures sound awkward

Well yes, because it’ll only sound “correct” for captures made for those levels. There is no standard for tonex, and no automatic calibration so by definition they are all going to be random and all over the place for each person.

The Ghost Note tool is not applicable to ToneX for this reason.

 

[Richard_G]

FWIW, it's also noted in the Ghost Note tool that for Tonex it "Depends on the individual capture!".

 

[Sascha Franck]

The Ghost Note tool is not applicable to ToneX for this reason.

Sure.
Still, to me it seems that the vast majority of captures are working better at 0 than at +8.5. But then, I obviously have no idea how they were actually meant to sound like.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, when you check the embedded preview files in the plugin or standalone versions, these very often seem to be way too hot to get the captures sound right. Sounds tagged clean for the most part don't stay clean, and to get to comparable levels with the Tonex' standalone/plugin input gain knob at 0, I will almost have to clip the Motu M2's input.
And then, business as usual, the embedded files work very, very differently between different captures - but at least most of the time, they're a lot hotter than the guitar signal I'm feeding into the Tonex (regardless of the iteration).
So, pretty much looks like hit and miss all over the place. Defenitely not a dealbreaker for myself, but it keeps me shaking my head at some captures until I adjust the gain knob on the amp.